Silly Season 2011/2012

[Richard]

RAikonen left with Massa beating him,

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa.

Lets look at the facts.

Massa was only in 9 races and got 22 points, Kimi got 9 points. Massa finished ahead of his team mate 5 times out of 4, but was behind on qualification by 4 to 5.

22 points to 9 is compelling?

[LionKing]

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa. Granted, Massa missed the last half of the season, but Raikkonen would still have beat him.

Absolutely not....
Massa was in front of Raikkonen 22-10 in points in 2009. Massa was racing better and clearly in front!

During their whole 2.5 years as teammates. Massa has out-qualified Kimi, many more poles, more points and more wins than Raikkonen. Massa outqualifed Kimi sth like 25-19 during their time. Even in 2007, Kimi's best year, Massa had 6 poles to Kimi's 3. These are the cumulative results:

Kimi - Massa

Wins_: 8 - 9
Poles: 5 - 12
Races: 22 - 22
Qualy: 19 - 25
Points: 197 - 205

PS: If curios the qualifying match ups with Alonso and Micheal are:
Alonso vs Massa ~ 29-6
Schumacher vs Massa 13-4
Race result are not much different....

[scuderiafan]

I misspoke.

[ringo]

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa. Granted, Massa missed the last half of the season, but Raikkonen would still have beat him.

Absolutely not....
Massa was in front of Raikkonen 22-10 in points in 2009. Massa was racing better and clearly in front!

During their whole 2.5 years as teammates. Massa has out-qualified Kimi, many more poles, more points and more wins than Raikkonen. Massa outqualifed Kimi sth like 25-19 during their time. Even in 2007, Kimi's best year, Massa had 6 poles to Kimi's 3. These are the cumulative results:

Kimi - Massa

Wins_: 8 - 9
Poles: 5 - 12
Races: 22 - 22
Qualy: 19 - 25
Points: 197 - 205

Thanks, Massa may be my favourite driver. ... .. favourite to trouble
But i got to give the guy respect when it is due. We have to watch the sport objectively. Kimi is just a name brand, a hollywood character.
Behind the coolness and fan fare, he's nothing special. Top driver, but i'd class him as Button with a little more speed and a dash of coldness.
If he comes back without being fully motivated, without being fit, without being the fastest he has ever been, Sutil will eat him alive.
And you know Sutil would enjoy that.

This is assuming Renault chose Sutil.

[sriraj1031]

well, lets see this

Massa : career
races : 154
won : 11
podium : 33
Poles : 15
Points : 582 ( including point system where it is awarded till 10th position)
retirements : 27 ( driver error and mechanical included)
Championship : zero


Kimi : career

races : 157
Won : 18
Pod: 62
Poles : 16
Points : 579
Retirements : 48
Championship : 1

so points per race after retirements are taken away is 5.4 : 4.3 to kimi

Stats are a paradox, so let that be not viewed when it comes to the speed of a driver

Comparing kimi and massa when the car wasnt suited for kimi driving style which he always prefers oversteer is not the right way to go.

And as far as ringo goes only one driver merits to be in F1 and thats Hamilton, and its no use arguing

P.S i am no fan of any driver but i really dont believe that massa would have been recalled after 2 years if he had left F1, so it shows the quality of a driver and what people think of him in f1 (sure they know better than us bench warmers)

And a nice write up why Massa seems to be struggling, also why he thrived against kimi
http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/05076

Nice Read :
http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/4015 ... m_of_Kimi/

[ss.vamsikrishna]

Guys
let me put this way, every driver has a bad season ....there will always be ups and downs for every driver...including the best ones you consider

The so called best Alonso was beaten by Rookie Hamilton in year 2007
HAMILTON > ALONSO

Well Hamilton was beaten this year by Button this year
BUTTON > HAMILTON

first two does not mean BUTTON > ALONSO RIGHT !!!!!!!!!!!!

and Massa has beaten Kimi in year 2008 ...well
MASSA > KIMI

and everyone has had a bad year...why Kimi's bad year is so highlighted
i dont understand...that guy is cool, does not do politics and Mclaren
Whitmarsh has been recommending Kimi for a long time and Button accepted..it

so i dont see Kimi non likers are better than Button and Whitmarsh ...right

He is different and always fun to watch him ...let us see how he fares...

[munudeges]

why Kimi's bad year is so highlighted i dont understand...

Because it's all some people have and I've never understood the negative fixation people have with Raikkonen. I can understand his fans talking about him but not the people who like to wade into threads, paint over what he achieved, highlight one year where he was still pretty darned good by any other standards and all over a driver who hasn't turned a wheel in Formula 1 for two years. Don't get it. Ringo's comments are a little on the scary side as to how unhinged they are, and he puts himself into a new context.

Drivers have years where they do better than others but the fact still remains that Raikkonen is a World Champion where Massa is not for a reason. That's the simple arithmetic.

[LionKing]

The results were for 2.5 years not just a year, basically %30 of Kimi's whole career. That is close to 50 races as teammates together, a lot of information and insight....

Massa was a bit faster driver than Kimi however I think his racing skills a bit worse than Kimi. That is how he outqualified Kimi more but they ended up pretty even in race finishes. They were pretty much equal drivers.

Secondly if someone does not try to abuse or misinterpret the statistics they provide valuable info. Some of the fundamental physics theories have been developed using statistics.

As for Alonso and Hamilton:
They were 109-109 in points, 4-4 wins, 10-7 in races, 8-9 in qualifying (3-5 in poles). The results suggests they were very well matched. The wrong conclusion to arrive would be to suggest that Hamilton > Alonso from this data instead of Hamilton ~= Alonso. That would be the interpreter's fault not the statistics'...

Alonso >> Massa and Schumacher >> Massa tells a lot too...

True, we fans may not be better than Button and Whitmarsh.But Ferrari can be... They wouldn't just let go their driver (and pay him $50 million dollars doing that) with no reason...

[ss.vamsikrishna]

I think Alonso was a double world champion and Hamilton was a Rookie who had never driven a F1 car prior to 2007. And Hamilton was second in the championship by end of 2007 not Alonso . Please this is enough to say Hamilton > Alonso

also, Kimi was fired from Ferrari because Santander wanted Alonso.
and if that is the case why is Domencilli supporting Kimi for a come back

[dren]

why Kimi's bad year is so highlighted i dont understand...

Because it's all some people have and I've never understood the negative fixation people have with Raikkonen. I can understand his fans talking about him but not the people who like to wade into threads, paint over what he achieved, highlight one year where he was still pretty darned good by any other standards and all over a driver who hasn't turned a wheel in Formula 1 for two years. Don't get it. Ringo's comments are a little on the scary side as to how unhinged they are, and he puts himself into a new context.

Drivers have years where they do better than others but the fact still remains that Raikkonen is a World Champion where Massa is not for a reason. That's the simple arithmetic.

And the way Kimi won the championship was special. He just put his head down and clawed his way up in the points. He had one hell of a finish to the season that year.

[Tyler]

You only had to watch Kimi during his Sauber days to know that he's got loads of talent.
I remember he made the same impression on me as when Schumacher first entered F!
He's still young and hasn't been away for that long, I think he'll get up to speed quicker than Schumacher and I'll bet he'll be beating whoever his teammate is in no time.

[Richard]

Whoever his team mate is?

You're laying down some big bets today Tyler. Will Kimi beat Button?

[Tyler]

Whoever his team mate is?

You're laying down some big bets today Tyler. Will Kimi beat Button?

In the same car, I think so but I can't see the Renault being good enough to challenge the McLaren next year.

[raymondu999]

It's a tough call to say anyone would really be thrashing Button/Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso. But I think what Tyler means is Kimi will be competitive

[Boudica]

RAikonen left with Massa beating him,

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa.

Lets look at the facts.

Massa was only in 9 races and got 22 points, Kimi got 9 points. Massa finished ahead of his team mate 5 times out of 4, but was behind on qualification by 4 to 5.

22 points to 9 is compelling?

That is not correct, during the first part of the season Ferrari were very unreliable and they made a lot of strategical blunders (like giving Kimi full wets on a dry track, sending both drivers out to late in qualifying ext. ext.).
Kimi and Massa only had two races together were nothing went wrong one was Monaco and the other was Silverstone, on top of that Kimi's car was also heavier then Massa's due to KERS. When it comes to Kimi's time at Ferrari he was beaten more by Ferrari management and team politics then anything else.
Ferrari stopped development on the F60 at Germany and Massa had his accident in Hungry of course. So the car remained exactly the same the only thing that was different was that Ferrari was forced to focus on Kimi, and he scored the second highest amounts of point in the second half of the season, 4 podiums one of which was a win, with the 4th - 5th best car car on the grid.

Jonathan Noble: "One team insider suggested that, looking at the data, Raikkonen has once again been doing things in the cockpit of a very difficult car that they can hardly believe. He is going beyond what, theoretically, the F60 would be capable of in normal hands as though the Finn’s last great act of defiance is to prove to his former bosses that they were wrong."

Raikkonen left when he was beating Massa. Granted, Massa missed the last half of the season, but Raikkonen would still have beat him.

Absolutely not....
Massa was in front of Raikkonen 22-10 in points in 2009. Massa was racing better and clearly in front!

During their whole 2.5 years as teammates. Massa has out-qualified Kimi, many more poles, more points and more wins than Raikkonen. Massa outqualifed Kimi sth like 25-19 during their time. Even in 2007, Kimi's best year, Massa had 6 poles to Kimi's 3. These are the cumulative results:

Kimi - Massa

Wins_: 8 - 9
Poles: 5 - 12
Races: 22 - 22
Qualy: 19 - 25
Points: 197 - 205

Thanks, Massa may be my favourite driver. ... .. favourite to trouble
But i got to give the guy respect when it is due. We have to watch the sport objectively. Kimi is just a name brand, a hollywood character.
Behind the coolness and fan fare, he's nothing special. Top driver, but i'd class him as Button with a little more speed and a dash of coldness.
If he comes back without being fully motivated, without being fit, without being the fastest he has ever been, Sutil will eat him alive.
And you know Sutil would enjoy that.

This is assuming Renault chose Sutil.

Direct driver comparisons doesn't always work, there are to many variables and factors to consider. Lets take Kimi and Sutil as an example.
Fisi had the upperhand against Sutil. Fisi went to Ferrari for the last part of the season in 2009, by the last race in Abu Dhabi (his 5th or 6th race with Ferrari), he was 3 seconds slower then Kimi in qualifying, so where would that put Sutil.


Here is a good article about Kimi's comeback:

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... is-back/P1