FOTA is dead

[raymondu999]

I'm not saying this is what they're doing. Rather I'm asking, does the RRA have any measures to counter that? If so, why couldn't more teams open "shadow companies" that would be their "technologies" arm?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I'm not saying this is what they're doing. Rather I'm asking, does the RRA have any measures to counter that? If so, why couldn't more teams open "shadow companies" that would be their "technologies" arm?

Because it costs an arm and a leg!

The RRA is shady to say the least, if it was out there in public domain we could all pick the bones from it. We only know the main points of what it is intended for. We don't know the finer points nor how it is enforceable.

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

Perhaps Ferrari quit the FOTA because FOTA could do nothing to stop RBR ?

Sep.21 (GMM/Inautonews.com) An audit by a company called Capgemini has found “discrepancies” in relation to Red Bull’s budget in the context of last year’s resource restriction agreement.

That is the claim of Italian magazine Autosprint, as Red Bull’s Sebastian Vettel travels to Singapore where he can wrap up his second consecutive championship this weekend.

Earlier this year, boss Christian Horner denied claims the team flouted the FOTA-governed cost savings agreement by as much as EUR 60 million in 2010.

Autosprint said the suspicion is that Red Bull broke the agreement by filing contentious information about its structure and workforce.

The magazine cited “sources” in claiming Red Bull figures have attempted to stop the Capgemini audit because it is an “invasion of privacy” requiring the release of “sensitive data”.

The report said the teams association FOTA, headed by McLaren’s Martin Whitmarsh, wants a “clarification” at a meeting this week even though “at the moment there is no mention of any penalties”.

Autosprint also questioned the timing of the emergence of the Capgemini story, given that Red Bull is on the cusp of securing both the drivers’ and constructors’ world championships for the second season running.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Thanks for sourcing that Lorenzo.

This is the piece I was alluding to in my earlier posts.

[dren]

I'm not saying this is what they're doing. Rather I'm asking, does the RRA have any measures to counter that? If so, why couldn't more teams open "shadow companies" that would be their "technologies" arm?

Probably because most of the teams genuinly wanted to reduce their costs. Not all of them have open check books. Red Bull wasn't hurt by the economy as much as most of the others were/are. Since the RRA was agreed upon by the teams outside of the FIA, there is nothing that can really happen to them if they breech it (I am assuming).

[Pup]

McLaren lost a cash cow in mercedes. It isn't their interests to expose themselves less to higher f1 costs as even though McLaren cars and McLaren f1 are sister companies, there is capital transfer between the 2 as in most sister companies. To deny there isn't and there is a blanket firewall between the 2 is naive to say the least.

Opinion, presented as fact, punctuated with an insult. That seems to be the recipe on these boards.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ pup

Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm all ears, presented as opinion as is most these threads, something forums are intrinsically about.

Its no coincidence McLaren want costs kept low as they cannot spend their way out of trouble like the good ol days. Perhaps you could point us to the magical money pot McLaren discovered to develop the 12C? With whom they have no leverage or expectations of pay back.... as all investments inevitably do.

The money has to come from somewhere, and that money gets harder to come by. Reasons why McLaren are staunch advocates of the RRA and FOTA.

And it will get harder still from 2014, when they pay for engines. Unless of course this magic money pot comes up with enough cash to build their engines... Which will be even more expensive!

[Pandamasque]

Who knows. Meybe there is a magic pot waiting for them in Japan

[dren]

Or pay drivers!

[Pup]

@ pup
Go ahead and prove me wrong. I'm all ears, presented as opinion as is most these threads, something forums are intrinsically about.

Its no coincidence McLaren want costs kept low as they cannot spend their way out of trouble like the good ol days. Perhaps you could point us to the magical money pot McLaren discovered to develop the 12C? With whom they have no leverage or expectations of pay back.... as all investments inevitably do.

The money has to come from somewhere, and that money gets harder to come by. Reasons why McLaren are staunch advocates of the RRA and FOTA.

And it will get harder still from 2014, when they pay for engines. Unless of course this magic money pot comes up with enough cash to build their engines... Which will be even more expensive!

I don't want to get into a pissing match with you - I respect your opinion, but I don't understand why you think what you do, and with such certainty.

Questions:

How is McLaren funding it's expansion now?
How could that money come from the team, if the team's budget has been substantially reduced, as you say.
Why do you assume that after 2013 McLaren won't be able to get an engine deal similar to what they have now?
Why would the business model that supports Ferrari not work at McLaren?

It comes down to this, I think - since McLaren's books aren't public, and since there's been nothing to indicate that McLaren doesn't have their finances in order, it should be your responsibility to show that they lost money on the SLR, that they don't have enough outside investment to fund the auto division, and that they no longer have sufficient income from their F1 division to compete with RB and Ferrari without the RRA, if that's what you want to argue. After all, they're expanding at an incredible pace, making long-term investments like building a new factory and now a new technology center that dwarfs their existing facilities, and they're doing completely unnecessary things like becoming the first team to make their entire operation carbon neutral, and those aren't the actions of a company that is worried about where their funding is going to be coming from. I'm not being a smart ass here - I'm genuinely curious as to why you think what you do, and with such certainty.

[myurr]

Perhaps Ferrari quit the FOTA because FOTA could do nothing to stop RBR ?

The story on James Allen's website states that the news and rumours he's hearing are that Ferrari quit because they completely distrust Red Bull and thought FOTA had been toothless in policing them. Haug and Fry were confident that Ferrari were looking for ways back into the fold but concessions would need to be made - presumably on testing and Red Bulls adherence to the RRA.

I'm not normally politically aligned with Ferrari but I do believe that there should be some limited in season testing, although nothing like there used to be, and that the RRA should be strictly enforced across the board. If Red Bull are happily building up fines for breaching the restrictions in the RRA because there's a loophole that means they don't have to pay them immediately but can defer them, which is one rumour, then that's clearly something that needs to be addressed.

[CHT]

When Ferrari was dominating, everyone is accusing of FIA being bias towards Ferrari. Now that RBR is dominating, everyone is looking towards FIA to promote fair play.

Things does change very quickly in F1.

[Raptor22]

So many negative idea here:

Red Bull wants to spend?
It is quite possible that Red Bull has not increased its spending at all. They were a mid tier spender in all their involvement but I beleive they spent their money wisely on Simulators and computer modelling. They have the most sorted integrated simulator on the grid now and that translates to a cost saving per annum

Red Bull was not as deeply affected as the auto manufacturers?
Red Bull energy drinks are a luxury item. People will tend to spend less at a night club on Vodka+RedBull cocktails just as they would prefer to hold onto their current cars. Red Bull is less affected because they spent less to begin with. While others have to adjust to the lower spend they are efficient at it, as is Mercedes. Red Bull I would hazard a guess is more than likely concerned with how the RRA is policed and views the desire of other teams to want "open Cards" as a way for those teams to get an inner looks at organisation structure and spend structure. Their internal efficiency is part of their competitive edge. Rather walk away than let anyone look inside and lose your advantage.

Ferrari never wanted to be part of a RRA and only agreed for political reasons. Remember the break away threat after Mosley wanted to impose capped budgets? (still the best idea out there btw). Ferrari was the first to moan and rallied the troops, firslty targeting its customer engine team (you will back us up or you won;t have an engine) and then some high level arm twisting to the boards of the other manufacturers.

Engines are out of the equation due to the engine freeze but the new V6T is definately going to be an issue. Renault would not want open book policies wrt its engines R&D budget cos it has quite a bit of IP it wants to protect.


All this indicates is that FOTA can never work long term. it also proves Mosley right in wanting a budget cap and I'm pretty sure it will back to that. Sometimes people need to walk in the desert for 40 yrs before seeing the promised land

[FW17]

All this indicates is that FOTA can never work long term. it also proves Mosley right in wanting a budget cap and I'm pretty sure it will back to that. Sometimes people need to walk in the desert for 40 yrs before seeing the promised land

Well put.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raptor,


Wouldn't you say that FOTA never being able to work is a negative idea?

If what you say is correct over the advanced simulator models etc. Then wouldn't it cost money to build a simulator to match that of RBs?
I also understand they have the biggest windtunnel in f1 that runs longer than the permissible time due to it "taking ages to get up to speed and also be shut down".
With such rhetoric, and with the evidence we see with our very own eyes(constant updates) is it any wonder people question the authenticity of red bulls protests about "fairness in the RRA"?