FOTA is dead

[ESPImperium]

There is a ballance that needs to be made somewhere.

Aero in F1 is too strong in performance, in 2009 the reduction in aero by 40% to mid season 2008 standards was what was targeted, what was achioved by the end of 2009 was a deficit of arround 10% in real terms by even the mid pack teams. In 2010 the downforce remained and to mid 2008 standards the downforce by the end was at arround 50% more by the 9 established teams. Last year the FIA cut downforce by 20% with banning of the DDD and the lowering of the diffuser as well, but the downforcde was clawed back by the first few GP and as much gained again.

As for engine development, id like to have seen the V8s freed up for the remandier of the life cycle, lets see what they can really do.

As for a new RRA, how is it policed??? Also will 3rd cars be introduced???

Something needs to be done, its gonna be a new F1 Arms Race, the small and even smaller mid pack teams wont be able to compete. There is a problem in MotoGP at present with cost capping and the arms race of electronics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/mattroberts/ ... seaso.html)
(http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/175306 ... uzuki.html)

Personally, id like to see a systemwhere each team can develop as much as they want to, however they all have 21 days testing and 1000 hours in the wind tunnel at 60%. And fir 1 hour of full scale of that, they can trade 4 hours of 60% size. Im unsure about CFD and computing power, this is something that id need someone else to guide me on, but id posibluy open up CFD even more, maybe get the teams to use a standardised CFD program, and the only discerning factor would be computing power.

Id also like to see design departments with a maximum ammount of say 50 people who handle the CFD and design detail of things, lets reduce the size of some design departments. Whilst im at it, lets rteduce the 'gardening leave' to 3 months and not the current 6.

Also with a new system, lets have a budget of €120m, but the budget is controled by the FIA having a list of approved suppliers, and those suppliers are then required to lodge how much each manufacturer spent on materials and such. Its the easiest way to control costs, as the teams can spend. Id make Engine and Transmissions the exclusion to this cost.

Im also in a posistion to say that id like to see a development freeze for all teams for the current season from event 14 onward, so they all have the same time to develop for the next season before testing starts.

However, Joe Saward has some interesting points on boosting the bottom line of the teams (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011/12/ ... e-of-fota/) that i think could work. Afterall its all down to money to a point.

[noname]

Also with a new system, lets have a budget of €120m, but the budget is controled by the FIA having a list of approved suppliers, and those suppliers are then required to lodge how much each manufacturer spent on materials and such. Its the easiest way to control costs, as the teams can spend. Id make Engine and Transmissions the exclusion to this cost.

I doubt teams would agree on that. Many (most?) of their suppliers is not allowed to say for who they are working for.

Some of them were even paid by the teams for not working for competitors.

[xpensive]

Domenicalli did make the point spending 100 million a year on aero only is a bit ridiculous.

I think he makes a valid point. But I also see why red bull fancy spending that money on aero every year...

I concur with acclamation, while I still believe that a strict flat-bottom rule, as long as there is car to measure,
would solve most of this problem when basically every measure today is in order to speed up the air under the car.

[ESPImperium]

Also with a new system, lets have a budget of €120m, but the budget is controled by the FIA having a list of approved suppliers, and those suppliers are then required to lodge how much each manufacturer spent on materials and such. Its the easiest way to control costs, as the teams can spend. Id make Engine and Transmissions the exclusion to this cost.

I doubt teams would agree on that. Many (most?) of their suppliers is not allowed to say for who they are working for.

Some of them were even paid by the teams for not working for competitors.

I kind of thought that would be the case.

I am just not sure what should and could happen.

One thing is for sure, more In Season testing will happen next year.

[Raptor22]

Raptor,


Wouldn't you say that FOTA never being able to work is a negative idea?

If what you say is correct over the advanced simulator models etc. Then wouldn't it cost money to build a simulator to match that of RBs?
I also understand they have the biggest windtunnel in f1 that runs longer than the permissible time due to it "taking ages to get up to speed and also be shut down".
With such rhetoric, and with the evidence we see with our very own eyes(constant updates) is it any wonder people question the authenticity of red bulls protests about "fairness in the RRA"?

FOTA never being able to work is a statement of fact.

Coca Cola and Pepsi cannot sit down together to make rules for the softdrink industry. Each will try to manipulate the rules in a way to best advantage themselves.
Does Red Bull have the political clout to sway the advantage their way? NO.

You claim RB to be the richest team on the grid. Thats a leap of faith.
Red Bull Energy Drinks may be a very profitable concern but the F1 operation sill operates under a budget and that a pretty much capped one at that.
Provide proof of the over spend and we can talk but siting theuir lack of desire to have elements of their books examined sound like someone in FOTA concocted a story. "lets accuse them of something that no one will ever reveal anyway. When they refuse we will use that in a smear campaign and the FIA will have to take action due to a public outcry"
Thats the dirty game F1 is

[Richard]

We seem to forget that if FOTA can't work it out between themselves, then the FIA will impose what the FIA want. That's why FOTA was formed in the first place.

Ferrari played a dominant role in forming FOTA, they'll do that again once the FIA send out their idea of imposing a FIA RRA.

[Raptor22]

and the vicious cycle of FOTA failure will continue.

We have been here before and it did not work. remember FOCA?

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

Sauber leave FOTA too, and Toro Rosso will leave soon

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Sauber leave FOTA too, and Toro Rosso will leave soon

Both under pressure from red bull and Ferrari.

I can see f1 being split into 2 over this.... Those that side with Ferrari and those that side with red bull.
After these 2 defections... FOTA is in all probability going to fold.

[Raptor22]

Well Red Bull never wanted to be part of FOTA. Thye were dragged into it by Renault!!
Mercedes were in favour of a budget cap but McLaren said no no...
ferrari were th shyzzsters who started the break away threat. they were never serious of course since there no way the teams can run their own series. They can;t even agree to make FOTA work LOL.

The whole things a frigging joke.

4 out (SAuber, RB, STR, and Ferrari)

who is next. Smart money is on Lotus althouh those clowns will go whichever way the grease is flowing

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Raptor

Red bull have threatened to leave FOTA long before Ferrari did.

I'm not sure why there is antagonism against Ferrari when red bull have been the people storming out of meetings....
Red bull want everything suited to their setup.

They don't want manufacturers to be able to have a technical advantage over teams who do not design engines. This is their argument.
And it's an incredibly short sighted one given they are receiving official Renault team back up.
They also want formula to continue on the road of aero dependance, expensive and does nothing to increase the spectacle of f1.

So basically they want to have a caste iron formula suited to their every strength and left FOTA because other teams baulked.

Having left FOTA, red bull are non commital to the RRA as far as only FOTA can enforce penalties.

What do you think Ferrari are going to do in this situation? Stand by idly and watch as red bull operate outside restrictions that are imposed by a FOTA enforced RRA ?
Of course not!

The underlying issue here is that red bull have to accept f1 is too aero dependant. This was discussed many times in 09, 10 and this year so it's not a new subject and nor is it one borne out of clipping red bulls wings. It's inevitable now the FIA will step in, and when they do it will be to red bulls detriment I feel. Not because of Ferrari favouritism or some such bollocks, but because its a logical and progressive step towards modernising f1 to have more relevance to road cars...

[Richard]

ferrari were th shyzzsters who started the break away threat. they were never serious of course

eh? Who was that Luca di Montezemolo chap who was the Chairman for the first 2 years?

[WhiteBlue]

The underlying issue here is that red bull have to accept f1 is too aero dependant. This was discussed many times in 09, 10 and this year so it's not a new subject and nor is it one borne out of clipping red bulls wings. It's inevitable now the FIA will step in, and when they do it will be to red bulls detriment I feel. Not because of Ferrari favouritism or some such bollocks, but because its a logical and progressive step towards modernising f1 to have more relevance to road cars...

Nice crystal ball you are using there. Unfortunately it is not based on knowledge of the contractual procedures. Although the FiA owns F1 they cannot step in willy nilly and impose any rules they want. The FiA can only approve rules that are generated by the F1 commission. So in truth a weakness of the teams means that the promoters - who are Bernies puppets - gain more influence. So any rule changes that are introduced against the common interest of the teams are more likely to favour FOM and not the FiA.

[xpensive]

...
Although the FiA owns F1 they cannot step in willy nilly and impose any rules they want.
...

Of course they can, "on the grounds of safety" the FIA can do just about anything they want, something which served MrM in good steed on many occations, almost as frequent and useful as another favourite, "bringing the sport into disrepute".

All MrT has to do is to declare the level of downforce dangerous, impose a flat-bottom rule and ban the front wing, ovenite.

That would make windtunnels and CFD almost redundant, overnite.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@ whiteblue

Who in f1 supports an aero dominant formula?

Redbull, Torro Rosso at a stretch due to being in red bulls pocket.... Who else?

I will say this as my opinion as I did before. The aero/mechanical balance will be addressed because while 1.6 turbos have little relevance in the real world, it's perceived relevance is what is important. The KERS tech implemented is also ample demonstration of tech that f1 is using that gives it a perceived relevance.
What does 10 points extra downforce mean to the man in the street? Naff all, nothing, nought.

The powers that be a very aware of this, and maybe f1 will become more about being cars than (expensive)upside down aeroplanes.

It is also worth noting that Ferrari want this to happen sooner rather than later, And also that they want to remain committed to the RRA and the raison d être behind it. Aero spend is ludicrous in f1, I think any sane person has to agree.
If this was a game if chess, Ferrari a protecting their king by swapping positions with the rook. They are reserving their right to see what happens from red bulls defection.