Brazilian GP 2011 - Interlagos

[Mr Alcatraz]

[ell66]

It's not a real bias is it? It is well known the Ferrari is rubbish on the harder compound. So when Alonso passed Button in the beginning of the race, he was overperforming in the Ferrari as the McLaren was the faster car in general.

Button being able to overtake Alonso at the end of the race was just the Ferrari not losing 1 sec/lap on the hards but significantly more, changing the balance of power favourably to McLaren!

It's also well known that the McLaren drivers couldn't find a ballance on the Soft compound, so when Alonso passed button in the beginning of the race he was simply passing a driver struggling on tyres. You should note especially that Button was going faster on the hards than hamilton was on the softs at the same point in the race.

The bias is that you're admitting mitigating factors for the driver you're biased towards, but not for the other.

I never said the mclaren drivers, I said button, he didnt get as much out of th soft tyres as he should have, hamilton was closing in on him and lapping slightly faster in the second stint with a broken gearbox....and for that reason you cant seriously compare jensons lap times to lewis when they were on diferent compounds.....not only was gearbox issue getting worse but he was stuck behind massa.....

[lebesset]

It's not a real bias is it? It is well known the Ferrari is rubbish on the harder compound. So when Alonso passed Button in the beginning of the race, he was overperforming in the Ferrari as the McLaren was the faster car in general.

Button being able to overtake Alonso at the end of the race was just the Ferrari not losing 1 sec/lap on the hards but significantly more, changing the balance of power favourably to McLaren!

F1 is just like politics now , it's all spin !

I will re-write the ferrari release

we were so good on soft tyres alonso nearly got a podium ; of course the penaly we paid for setting the car to be so good on the softs is that we are poor on the hards

[ell66]

It's not a real bias is it? It is well known the Ferrari is rubbish on the harder compound. So when Alonso passed Button in the beginning of the race, he was overperforming in the Ferrari as the McLaren was the faster car in general.

Button being able to overtake Alonso at the end of the race was just the Ferrari not losing 1 sec/lap on the hards but significantly more, changing the balance of power favourably to McLaren!

F1 is just like politics now , it's all spin !

I will re-write the ferrari release

we were so good on soft tyres alonso nearly got a podium ; of course the penaly we paid for setting the car to be so good on the softs is that we are poor on the hards

Dont be ridiculous, it's not a set up choice to make sure there good on softs and not the mediums, its just the way the works, the ferrari's from the last few years have all been the same, but this year worse than normal.

[beelsebob]

Dont be ridiculous, it's not a set up choice to make sure there good on softs and not the mediums, its just the way the works, the ferrari's from the last few years have all been the same, but this year worse than normal.

And yet you're trying to establish that it was Button's fault that he couldn't get the softs to work... Yep, no bias there.

[PlatinumZealot]

Also, I don't think the car Red Bull is that fast at all. I think Mclarens and RedBull are on par in terms of performance. Just have a look at Webber, Button and Hamilton. These guys all had their share of points.

Did you watch the race?

Sorry Jamsbong, but I saw a crippled RB6 outpacing a fully firing Maclaren. Not to mention outqualifying two Mclarens by half a second on a 75 second lap!

If you compare the three drivers, Hamilton, Webber and Button, then Button is actually better than Hamilton (no surprise there) and both Mclaren drivers are actually better than Webber. Out of the 19 races, Webber is ahead 5 times, Button 8 times and Hamilton 6 times.

Sure if you're refering to the last race, the RB7 was definitely better on that day. If you take Vettel out of the picture, there is nothing special about the RB7 that the Mclarens can't do.

Ah, Hamilton was going faster than Button on the softs, and he didn't have full use of 7th gear. Check the timings please.

Anyway, the Mclaren was never catching Vettel.

[ell66]

Dont be ridiculous, it's not a set up choice to make sure there good on softs and not the mediums, its just the way the works, the ferrari's from the last few years have all been the same, but this year worse than normal.

And yet you're trying to establish that it was Button's fault that he couldn't get the softs to work... Yep, no bias there.

You completely miss the point...

ALL year the ferrari has been the same in general, in brazil it was down to button not getting the most out of his car on the softer tire, his team mate proved the pace was there by lapping faster with a broken gear box.

jeeez youll twist it anyway suit your argument.

[raymondu999]

Basically you're saying it was the car's fault that Alonso was slower than Button on the harder tyres --> Agreed. That's been a weakness of the Ferrari all year.

Then you're saying that the McLaren, as proven by Hamilton; should have been faster than Alonso when on the soft tyres. Is that what you're saying?

I don't particularly remember that phase of the race so I can't make judgments based on Hamilton's lap times which I forgot. Maybe you could post the lap times of all 3 guys?

[ell66]

Basically you're saying it was the car's fault that Alonso was slower than Button on the harder tyres --> Agreed. That's been a weakness of the Ferrari all year.

Then you're saying that the McLaren, as proven by Hamilton; should have been faster than Alonso when on the soft tyres. Is that what you're saying?

I don't particularly remember that phase of the race so I can't make judgments based on Hamilton's lap times which I forgot. Maybe you could post the lap times of all 3 guys?

During the races i watch the live timings very closely and during the second stint, lewis was lapping slightly faster than button despite his problems.
Jenson just didnt get as much out of the softs as he should have, he admitted as much himself.

[Mr Alcatraz]

Basically you're saying it was the car's fault that Alonso was slower than Button on the harder tyres --> Agreed. That's been a weakness of the Ferrari all year.

Then you're saying that the McLaren, as proven by Hamilton; should have been faster than Alonso when on the soft tyres. Is that what you're saying?

I don't particularly remember that phase of the race so I can't make judgments based on Hamilton's lap times which I forgot. Maybe you could post the lap times of all 3 guys?

During the races i watch the live timings very closely and during the second stint, lewis was lapping slightly faster than button despite his problems.
Jenson just didnt get as much out of the softs as he should have, he admitted as much himself.

Damn these two passes have really been beaten to death. I am not taking sides, but Jenson drove primes on his second stint, so that is not a good example of LH and JB's relative pace on options. Which I think that is what you were getting at.
Here is what happened: Fred got his trademark good start and got better traction out of a turn and made a legit pass that’s all. JB said he backed off because there was some debris on the track. I'm not calling JB a liar but if he got the same kind of traction out of that corner as Alonso he would have been ahead of him and stayed ahead even with an evasive maneuver most likely, although you have to take into consideration he may not have seen it in time. At such an early stage of the race I don't know what would have distracted him as he had no reason to be watching his mirrors. The thing that is crazy about this whole discussion is that passing happens in racing. I know that it is a lot less frequent in f1 than almost every other racing discipline. On this forum (and others I'm sure) contributors really like to shame a driver (or his fans, and/or countrymen) that gets passed. Uncool bro's! I think that there is too much emphasis in this arena. Now if the pass comes in the last three laps then it is very meaningful IMO.
Like Raymondu I can't remember part of the race, a different one that is borne out of me just getting old and always forgetting shi+. Alonso was commenting that his DRS was not functioning properly. I seem to remember that there was a situation with one of the Ferrari's (maybe Massa's) where there was a back marker less than a second in front of the Ferrari which (if I have the rules straight) would allow both drivers (the Ferrari and the McLaren perusing it) to deploy DRS. I don't think Lewis was in the race long enough to catch a back marker. So it may have been Alonso. I really only have a vague memory of this so someone that has a working memory might get that straight for me. At any rate Alonso made an excellent pass early, and Button used an excellent strategy to overcome his problem with the options, and make the primes really work. To me these were simply two passes, and as helpless as FA was when he got passed, just like his pass on Button, Buttons pass was simply what it was. IMO it is not worth splitting hairs over. Button got the podium and Fred needs a car that can compete with McL, and RB. I really think this is more of an indictment of there being so little passing (relatively speaking) between the teams that are up at the pointy end. That is what happens when you have three teams where for the most part RB is .2 to .3 seconds faster than McLaren, who were .3 seconds per lap faster than Ferrari on this track. Alonso was in a third best car, and Button was in the second best car. Things basically shook out the way they should have. Congat's to both of them.

[raymondu999]

Alcatraz - I thought JB drove primes in his 3rd and 4th stints? I thought he went soft-soft-hard-hard rather than soft -hard-hard-hard

[Mr Alcatraz]

That's right he did at that! Never mind

[Traction]

This thread=circles within circles

[PlatinumZealot]

That's right he did at that! Never mind

When Both Ham and Jenson were in clear air in the second stint Ham was getting more out of the softs.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... n%20Button
HAM BUT
15 1:19.026 [4] 1:22.409 PIT[6] -3.383 -2.327 5
16 1:22.197 PIT[5] 1:33.098 [7] -10.901 -13.228 6
17 1:33.307 [6] 1:18.094 [5] +15.213 +1.985 11
18 1:18.003 [6] 1:17.936 [5] +0.067 +2.052 12
19 1:17.764 [6] 1:17.779 [5] -0.015 +2.037 7
20 1:18.052 [6] 1:18.093 [5] -0.041 +1.996 8
21 1:17.800 [6] 1:17.847 [5] -0.047 +1.949 9
22 1:17.998 [5] 1:18.075 [4] -0.077 +1.872 10
23 1:17.891 [5] 1:18.045 [4] -0.154 +1.718 11
24 1:17.965 [5] 1:17.692 [4] +0.273 +1.991 13
25 1:17.762 [5] 1:17.961 [4] -0.199 +1.792 12
26 1:17.757 [5] 1:18.107 [4] -0.350 +1.442 13
27 1:17.933 [5] 1:18.186 [4] -0.253 +1.189 14
28 1:17.689 [5] 1:17.759 [4] -0.070 +1.119 15
29 1:17.827 [5] 1:17.981 [4] -0.154 +0.965 16
30 1:19.210 [5] 1:18.188 [4] +1.022 +1.987 14
31 1:18.439 [4] 1:21.639 PIT[5] -3.200 -1.213 17
32 1:17.663 [4] 1:32.002 [6] -14.339 -15.552 18
33 1:21.402 PIT[4] 1:17.621 [6]