How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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ubrben wrote:

DRCorsa wrote:Pirelli constructed a set of tyres according to FIA's requirements.
Pirelli would have been able to construct a super grippy tyre lasting more laps. But that wasn't what they had been asked to provide.


Rubbish - that's their level. Let's not confuse engineering with PR.

Ben
Are you kidding? :wtf:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

munks
munks
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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Jersey Tom wrote:Image
Nice. Would you mind at all elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of that testing machine? It seems that the belt is the biggest weakness, both because of its surface and the fact that it couldn't possibly be as vertically rigid as a real asphalt road.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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That belt could be steel and air pressure could be used to support it. This is the latest practice in wind tunnel rolling road systems.

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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Jersey Tom wrote:F&M testing every tire? No. For too many reasons to list.

If you want to sort tires, a tape measure is one place to start.
How about tire spring rate testing at the track? This was done in NASCAR until it was quickly banned. Did the NASCAR teams see much deviation? Can you volunteer a percentage?

Brian

Jersey Tom
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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munks wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote:Image
Nice. Would you mind at all elaborating on the strengths and weaknesses of that testing machine? It seems that the belt is the biggest weakness, both because of its surface and the fact that it couldn't possibly be as vertically rigid as a real asphalt road.
If you look beneath the tire you will see an air bearing directly under the steel belt. Plenty of support.

I won't elaborate on the strengths and weaknesses of the machine or the data that comes off it.

Regarding Brian's inquiry, there's no need to test spring rate at the track. Pirelli can supply that information. As is public information, Goodyear does this for each and every tire supplied to NASCAR teams.

I also won't disclose what the variation is... isn't really relevant. Suffice to say, there are easy and practical ways of sorting tires at the track.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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How would you estimate the tire spring rate is tested on each racing tire? Some kind of automated mounting machine that allows for rapid test fixture installation and pressurization?

Why were the NASCAR teams doing their own testing at the track?

Brian

Jersey Tom
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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hardingfv32 wrote:How would you estimate the tire spring rate is tested on each racing tire? Some kind of automated mounting machine that allows for rapid test fixture installation and pressurization?
Estimate? I've seen it done. I used to work there. But no, not disclosing that.
Why were the NASCAR teams doing their own testing at the track?
Don't know. Was before my time.

Now let me ask you something Brian. Maybe I have before. What your background? In school? Out of school? Engineer? Mechanic? Doing professional racing? Amateur? Fan?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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A retired manufacturing engineer racing my own designs at SCCA club level. I have a very high level of interested in all race engineering subjects. You never now when you will learn something that you can use. Provide some answers when you feel you can.

Thanks
Brian

Jersey Tom
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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I see. Just curious. But of course, understand that there's a lot that can't be disclosed until I retire.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

ubrben
ubrben
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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strad wrote:
ubrben wrote:

DRCorsa wrote:Pirelli constructed a set of tyres according to FIA's requirements.
Pirelli would have been able to construct a super grippy tyre lasting more laps. But that wasn't what they had been asked to provide.


Rubbish - that's their level. Let's not confuse engineering with PR.

Ben
Are you kidding? :wtf:
No...

Ben

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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OK...I see..YOU think Pirelli tires, in general apparently, are junk so we should all just drop our opinions and join with you on that basis alone? Interesting.
:lol:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Jersey Tom
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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strad wrote:OK...I see..YOU think Pirelli tires, in general apparently, are junk so we should all just drop our opinions and join with you on that basis alone? Interesting.
:lol:
Opinion of a current motorsport professional who knows the subject very well. What more do you want? Incidentally it's an opinion I agree with.

The more important point Ben makes here is to not take these quotes from the "top people" at Pirelli - or any company for that matter - at face value. Without really a better way to describe it... it's generally a sliver of truth spun into something different. They're (probably) not going to lie outright, but there's also no reason for them to tell the whole story. If you want to know the real deal, talk to the "grunt" level engineers working on the teams or at the track, or in related positions. I'm not going to disclose the specifics of what I've heard or from whom or what organizations they're with - but again, I agree with Ben's general assessment. I still give Pirelli somewhere between a B and C grade.

Also keep in mind that how well a tire company does their job is NOT just about how the tires perform on track. How well did they prepare the teams before the season? How much data did they make available to the teams for every race? How well did they adapt and serve the teams needs as the season went on?

It really isn't anything to do with "bashing" Pirelli as much as it is the reality of the situation. As far as resources go, Pirelli is small compared to Bridgestone or Michelin. That makes things difficult. They also chose to go into this on a VERY short time table. End result was mediocre IMO. Would have expected a better to be honest, but also not anything astounding given that they had a TON to do in a very short time.

At the end of the day it still boggles me how much racing fans take the comments of the drivers, announcers, and "high level" people at face value. It's really no different than any other industry. For anyone who has worked professionally - particularly in a large organization - consider this: For any given project or event, think about how YOU perceived things (let's call this the reality of the situation), how upper management perceived things, and how upper management then presented things to the public. How often were these three things identical? How often were they significantly different?
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

ubrben
ubrben
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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strad wrote:OK...I see..YOU think Pirelli tires, in general apparently, are junk so we should all just drop our opinions and join with you on that basis alone? Interesting.
:lol:
It's difficult in this situation. Various people like JT and DaveW know me off the board, and know what I do. If you don't it's harder to take an assertion at face value. All I can say is that I'm a professional race tyre engineer who's raced and beaten Michelin and Pirelli at various points.

Above all I want to say again that developing race tyres is tough and I've got a lot of respect for Pirelli for putting themselves out there,but the fact remains that the tyres were average at best.

Tom's post is spot on and should be read and understood by everyone - it is not in the best interests of any motorsport team or company to be 100% honest in the press. That's life - don't pretend otherwise.

Ben

hardingfv32
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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1) Pirelli is small, but they could be made big if someone wants to apply the budget. The F1 participants choose not to. There are no indications they are unhappy with the product and support they got.

2) I do not see how the tires and support provided by Pirelli negatively affected the "show" this season. All the competitors race under the same conditions in regard to tires.

3) I think tires being considered a constant unknown is good for F1, as F1 teams spend a lot of money getting all the answers. Keeping one area of knowledge away from them is good for the "show".

Brian

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strad
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Re: How well did Pirelli do their job in 2011?

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People wanted tires that wore out quickly...they got them...I can't see a reason to condemn Pirelli.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss