Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

[Hemsy]

Fry coming over from Mclaren means that he will bring a lot of ideas as to how to improve mechanical grip, which atm is Ferrari's weakness and Mclaren's strength. Ferrari have never been able to work the tires as effectively as say Mclaren ever since 2007. Ferrari's aero though is still one of strongest probably after RBR, it's just that they never got on top of how to fully exploit the EBD. Also Fry looks like someone who is willing to take risks in stark contrast to Costa's approach, which is necessary as RBR set the bar really really high.

[donskar]

Correct me if im wrong but i think that Ferrari dont know what they are doing.
They did copy a lot of the RBR cars but it didnt work out.
And i honestly think they wont in 2012.

I have a reall pasion for Ferrari and i love the team. But without Fernando (don't like him at all) they would lose more points to the top team than they already did last season.
Fernando is a real fast driver and his speed makes the Ferrari looks faster than it actually is.

Im curious for the next season and all we can do is speculate.. But cmon what did they show last season? Nothing. They could not make the hard tyres work, made a horrible copy of the RBR front wing, the updates didn't work out right and many more.

Compared to McLaren and they know exactly what to do, they are going to have a hard time.

Are you SURE you are a Ferrai fan? I wonder . . .

[yener]

Correct me if im wrong but i think that Ferrari dont know what they are doing.
They did copy a lot of the RBR cars but it didnt work out.
And i honestly think they wont in 2012.

I have a reall pasion for Ferrari and i love the team. But without Fernando (don't like him at all) they would lose more points to the top team than they already did last season.
Fernando is a real fast driver and his speed makes the Ferrari looks faster than it actually is.

Im curious for the next season and all we can do is speculate.. But cmon what did they show last season? Nothing. They could not make the hard tyres work, made a horrible copy of the RBR front wing, the updates didn't work out right and many more.

Compared to McLaren and they know exactly what to do, they are going to have a hard time.

Are you SURE you are a Ferrai fan? I wonder . . .

Did i say something which broke your ferrari glasses? Or does it just hurt to hear the reality?
I love Ferrari, but they just don't have a clue.

[Hemsy]

Correct me if im wrong but i think that Ferrari dont know what they are doing.
They did copy a lot of the RBR cars but it didnt work out.
And i honestly think they wont in 2012.

I have a reall pasion for Ferrari and i love the team. But without Fernando (don't like him at all) they would lose more points to the top team than they already did last season.
Fernando is a real fast driver and his speed makes the Ferrari looks faster than it actually is.

Im curious for the next season and all we can do is speculate.. But cmon what did they show last season? Nothing. They could not make the hard tyres work, made a horrible copy of the RBR front wing, the updates didn't work out right and many more.

Compared to McLaren and they know exactly what to do, they are going to have a hard time.

Are you SURE you are a Ferrai fan? I wonder . . .

Did i say something which broke your ferrari glasses? Or does it just hurt to hear the reality?
I love Ferrari, but they just don't have a clue.

Just because they are testing parts seen other cars doesn't mean that they don't have a clue. If that was the case then every team that copied the DDD, EBD and F-duct were all clueless. There is nothing wrong in trying to understanding what makes the fastest car on the grid the fastest.

[shelly]

We are not talking about gizmos (ddd, ebd, f-duct), but about the front wing.

ferrari has gone its way for two years with front wing design, believing they were exploiting the most of the 500x200x1800 box, and having their competitor shapes on their screen.
At the end of 2011, after a big change in people in the aero dept (they have now the third aero leader in three years IIRC, they have changed the cfd leader), and having hired new people form other teams at all levels of seniority, they have produced a wing that follows a completely different philosophy and closely matches redbull's shape.

It's like thay are resetting and starting over, it's something different from implementing ebd (which btw they did not do successfully - they have admitted underestimating its effects). All this is backed by Fry interview saying the will take a different approach from now on.

[Hemsy]

We are not talking about gizmos (ddd, ebd, f-duct), but about the front wing.

ferrari has gone its way for two years with front wing design, believing they were exploiting the most of the 500x200x1800 box, and having their competitor shapes on their screen.
At the end of 2011, after a big change in people in the aero dept (they have now the third aero leader in three years IIRC, they have changed the cfd leader), and having hired new people form other teams at all levels of seniority, they have produced a wing that follows a completely different philosophy and closely matches redbull's shape.

It's like thay are resetting and starting over, it's something different from implementing ebd (which btw they did not do successfully - they have admitted underestimating its effects). All this is backed by Fry interview saying the will take a different approach from now on.

Yes they have taken a completely different approach but after failing to win a championship for 4 years, it is somewhat justified. Yes, in F1 one cannot be competitive by simply copying others but by understanding what makes RBR fast and incorporating it into their own design and possibly even improving upon it is at least a start. Also the fact that they are willing to go down a different route shows that they are open minded unlike Costa who stuck with his conservative approach and look where it got them.

[CHT]

Based on my past experience dealing with Italians in business, all I can say is that Italians are highly passionate about what they are doing, however in terms of delivery and execution, they are somehow still lagging behind their Europeans counter parts. Based on the same principle, I would think that Ferrari can only go back to their past glory if they replace Stefano Domenicali.

[shelly]

@hemsy: I think that it is too simple to single out Costa and his conservative approach. Big problem was Costa had no aero background - I agree on that. It is up to the specialists of each field (be it aero, structures or systems)to push the envelope, find new things and then raise thier hands in meetings and say "we can find a big chunk of performance if we do that".

Than the chief designer has to balance the compromise beetwen specialists: Tombazis in a recent interview has explained how they have now decided to ask more form their structure engineers in order to expand the available shape envelope for the aero guys.

Aero is one of the biggest performance differentiators: that's why ferrari are trying to get stronger in this field. The fact that they have changed three head of aero in the last three years, and also the cfd leader has changed, says that the situation has been very fluid in the past: let us see if the new staff and organization will have some stability in the years to come.

[Gerhard Berger]

I would've thought Costa had a very strong aero background. He was Byrne's right hand man for many years and was previously chief designer at Minardi.

[shelly]

Tombazis has a phd in aerodynamics, climbed all the steps in the windtunnel hierarchy and then became chief designer after a period in mclaren.
Costa is a mechsnical engineer who has become then deputy chief designer with byrne and then chief designer in couple with tombazis (I never understood who called the shots if the two disagreed).
It is a completely different background.

Every chief designer has to resort to his head of aero for finding aero performance, see for example newey and prodromou. But if the chief has an aero backgorund, he will understand aero better and probably he will be a little biased i favour of aerodynamcs when making compromises with the other departments.

Who knows who is the current head of aero at ferrari? Some say it is Hennel, but I have not seen any official acknowledgment of that. Do we have to wait until wroom in january?

All I have found is that Tombazis responsibilities are now more aero heavy (like back in 2003).

[Gerhard Berger]

Tombazis has a phd in aerodynamics, climbed all the steps in the windtunnel hierarchy and then became chief designer after a period in mclaren.
Costa is a mechsnical engineer who has become then deputy chief designer with byrne and then chief designer in couple with tombazis (I never understood who called the shots if the two disagreed).
It is a completely different background.

Every chief designer has to resort to his head of aero for finding aero performance, see for example newey and prodromou. But if the chief has an aero backgorund, he will understand aero better and probably he will be a little biased i favour of aerodynamcs when making compromises with the other departments.

Who knows who is the current head of aero at ferrari? Some say it is Hennel, but I have not seen any official acknowledgment of that. Do we have to wait until wroom in january?

All I have found is that Tombazis responsibilities are now more aero heavy (like back in 2003).

Costa has a degree in mechanical engineering so from that perspective, I agree with you that his aero background is limited. However, i think they can learn alot while on the job. For example, Byrne had no formal engineering or aero training yet he was certainly regarded as an aero specialist at Benetton and Ferrari.

I think chief aerodynamicist is Hennel. I read that he had replaced De Luca around the time of the Canadian Grand Prix. Would not be surprised if Alonso recommended him.

[lotus7]

Tombazis has a phd in aerodynamics, climbed all the steps in the windtunnel hierarchy and then became chief designer after a period in mclaren.
Costa is a mechsnical engineer who has become then deputy chief designer with byrne and then chief designer in couple with tombazis (I never understood who called the shots if the two disagreed).
It is a completely different background.

Byrne is a chemical engineer ....and that is also a completely different background

[shelly]

yes I know byrne has a different cv , but he has grown together with f1 aero since the seventies - it is too special a reference

[dren]

Tombazis has a phd in aerodynamics, climbed all the steps in the windtunnel hierarchy and then became chief designer after a period in mclaren.
Costa is a mechsnical engineer who has become then deputy chief designer with byrne and then chief designer in couple with tombazis (I never understood who called the shots if the two disagreed).
It is a completely different background.

Byrne is a chemical engineer ....and that is also a completely different background

Chemical is quite far from the other engineering. Electrical, mechanical, structural, aero, etc are all somewhat related. Chemical is a beast in of itself.

[aral]

I thought that this was supposed to be a technical thread about the 2012 Ferrari? Why has it turned into a dispute about degrees?