McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes (pre-launch speculation)

[MIKEY_!]

All we can say is that since 2008, the only 2 consecutive years regulation doesn't change, lap times improved.

No doubt that is what should happen (actually the regs did change a little) but that simply is not the case this year, the lowering of the nose and the removal of the EBD are a big deal. They will have a better understanding of the tires this year which will help them.

[raymondu999]

I'd expect DRS to go backwards this year as teams use larger flaps to regain DF.

I'm not so sure – when McLaren finally got their rear wing right they seemed to both gain DF *and* DRS effect, so it may be that there's a sweet spot in the short-chord wing.

Without DRS teams also began to run shorter chord rear wings so there definetely is a 'sweet spot' with these wings.

If memory serves; the RB5 (and hence the STR4; as that was still a twin of the RB5) never even had a long chord. They just had a short chord flap since the start; albeit longer than what they had in 2011

[MIKEY_!]

DRS is not the only reason to run a short chord flap of course.

[Javert]

Only two "truly" direct comparisons between long chord & short chord

1) Hungaroring - they run both, the short chord was incredibly effective on straights but best times were obtained with the long chord ... And they raced the long chord

2) Singapore - they run both, pratically no difference in corners, the short chord had 4 KPH advantage on straights ... And they raced the short chord

[raymondu999]

Around a circuit like the Hungaroring it's not much of a surprise though is it? But with Singapore; I seem to remember that the drivers were split after practice no? I seem to remember a Monza-style disagreement where one driver wanted one but one wanted the other.

DRS is not the only reason to run a short chord flap of course.

Of course not. The chord is still short through the laps when you're not using DRS.

[Javert]

Around a circuit like the Hungaroring it's not much of a surprise though is it? But with Singapore; I seem to remember that the drivers were split after practice no? I seem to remember a Monza-style disagreement where one driver wanted one but one wanted the other.

Yes but if it the short chord offered better speed trap AND better DF you should have seen it in Hungaroring

Singapore I remember Button was off the pace with the long chord, at least until he's gone off
Hamilton was more happy with the short chord although it seemed they were losing time in the 3rd sector (the one with faster corners). They eventually decided to run the short chord on both cars, but race pace wasn't good.

With the short chord seen in SPA, Monza and Singapore they were off the pace in the races (and in Q too), with the updated version seen in Japan they seemed to have found downforce.

[wesley123]

Without DRS teams also began to run shorter chord rear wings so there definetely is a 'sweet spot' with these wings.

If memory serves; the RB5 (and hence the STR4; as that was still a twin of the RB5) never even had a long chord. They just had a short chord flap since the start; albeit longer than what they had in 2011

I believe these ran even shorter chords, with an small central slot in the flap.

[raymondu999]

The RB5/6 rear wings ran a longer chord flap than the RB7. Then the RB6 version had the F-duct blowing the main plane; the slit in the flap; and the two weird bumps to the left and right of the F-duct.

[Javert]

2009 cars were slower than 2008.

Q2 times
2008 2009
Melbourne 1:25:187 1:24:783 <
Malesya 1:34:188 1:33:784 <
China 1:34:947 1:35:130 > *
Turkey 1:26:050 1:27:016 > *
Spain 1:20:584 1:19:954 <
Monaco 1:15:110 1:14:514 <
Valencia 1:37:842 1:38:076 > *
Silverstone 1:19:537 1:18:119 <
Hungaroring 1:19:068 1:20:358 > *

SPA, Monza, Brazil all removed for climate
Singapore, Japan, because it was a little different beast from 2008 to 2009

2009 cars, due to the tires, were very good in comparison to 2008 ones
In the high downforce tracks (except Hungaroring) they were faster.

[Shrieker]

I say we'll see a faster lap time in Turkey, Monza and India, with Barcellona the race being most affected by EBD loss

I sense clairvoyance. So, which one will be kicked, Bahrain or Valencia

[ell66]

2009 cars were slower than 2008.

Q2 times
2008 2009
Melbourne 1:25:187 1:24:783 <
Malesya 1:34:188 1:33:784 <
China 1:34:947 1:35:130 > *
Turkey 1:26:050 1:27:016 > *
Spain 1:20:584 1:19:954 <
Monaco 1:15:110 1:14:514 <
Valencia 1:37:842 1:38:076 > *
Silverstone 1:19:537 1:18:119 <
Hungaroring 1:19:068 1:20:358 > *

SPA, Monza, Brazil all removed for climate
Singapore, Japan, because it was a little different beast from 2008 to 2009

2009 cars, due to the tires, were very good in comparison to 2008 ones
In the high downforce tracks (except Hungaroring) they were faster.

I think what he meant was downforce levels, as you said the slick tyres offer a lot more grip.
Id be intrested to find out what year the cars ran with the most downforce, 04,08 or 10 springs to mind.

[PlatinumZealot]

2009 cars were slower than 2008.

Q2 times
2008 2009
Melbourne 1:25:187 1:24:783 <
Malesya 1:34:188 1:33:784 <
China 1:34:947 1:35:130 > *
Turkey 1:26:050 1:27:016 > *
Spain 1:20:584 1:19:954 <
Monaco 1:15:110 1:14:514 <
Valencia 1:37:842 1:38:076 > *
Silverstone 1:19:537 1:18:119 <
Hungaroring 1:19:068 1:20:358 > *

SPA, Monza, Brazil all removed for climate
Singapore, Japan, because it was a little different beast from 2008 to 2009

2009 cars, due to the tires, were very good in comparison to 2008 ones
In the high downforce tracks (except Hungaroring) they were faster.

I apologise for my poor writing skills, but I meant downforce as in the last paragraph of the post. A poster was talking about clawing back downforce(sometime we make ourselves equate fast lap times with Downforce). But yes laptime can be reduced without adding downforce (DRS, KERS, slick tyres, flexiwings, brake stability, TC, etc).Put those four slick Bridgestones on the 2008 CAR and watch those times drop.

In 2012 you are actually on the same tyres, lower nose, no EBD, more drag on the body (high exhaust) than 2011. Considering heavy refinements in the late season cars it is a pretty hard bet that the 2012 are going to have more Downforce.

If they do I will be very surprised.

But laptime for laptimes...I am still interested..especially for race completion times...

[raymondu999]

If you piled a 2012 car; against a 2011 car with periscope positioning of the exhausts; I'd bet my bottom dollar that even with lower nose the 2012 cars would have more downforce. But with the EBD massively helping downforce generation in the technical corners; and introducing a fluidic skirt to help rake which would massively help in high speed; I don't think that as overall packages; the 2012 beasts would have near as much as the 2011 cars.

[Richard]

Of course a 2011 without EBD would be slower than 2012. That is because the 2012 car is optimised to work without the EBD, while the 2011 car is optimised to exploit the EBD.

[Pierce89]

2009 cars were slower than 2008.

Q2 times
2008 2009
Melbourne 1:25:187 1:24:783 <
Malesya 1:34:188 1:33:784 <
China 1:34:947 1:35:130 > *
Turkey 1:26:050 1:27:016 > *
Spain 1:20:584 1:19:954 <
Monaco 1:15:110 1:14:514 <
Valencia 1:37:842 1:38:076 > *
Silverstone 1:19:537 1:18:119 <
Hungaroring 1:19:068 1:20:358 > *

SPA, Monza, Brazil all removed for climate
Singapore, Japan, because it was a little different beast from 2008 to 2009

2009 cars, due to the tires, were very good in comparison to 2008 ones
In the high downforce tracks (except Hungaroring) they were faster.

I think what he meant was downforce levels, as you said the slick tyres offer a lot more grip.
Id be intrested to find out what year the cars ran with the most downforce, 04,08 or 10 springs to mind.

Those are the three years my money would go on for the most DF. Each was the last year before a reg change