Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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MIKEY_!
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Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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Nice sketch. Has some resemblance to my F1 model. The bulge would split air to each side of the nose (if I'm looking at it right).

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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mith wrote:
Pol_S wrote:In fact, that sketch is mine. It's only a sketch based on rumours, I don't know how it's going to be.

But I've updated it, I realized the old one didn't match 2012 specs.
Legal or not, still it's great job!

Actually that 'dolphin bulge' should be somewhere around front end of the tube, as the teams (in my understanding of changes) were allowed to recycle their tubes until next major change of the rules. So the nose has to get lower at the place, where tube ends.
tube, or tub? :wtf:
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csponton
csponton
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Joined: 08 Sep 2009, 17:02

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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FUND = aerodynamic performance increase of 5 points = 0.05 * 5 = 0.25s;
FUND + SPEAKER = aerodynamic performance improvement of 7 points = 7 * 0.05 = 0.35s. These new wind tunnel has a 1 point less than the previous CFD simulation;
OTHER SPECIAL FUND + SPEAKER + = AERODYNAMIC aerodynamic performance increase by 9 = 9 * 0.05 = 0.45s
N.B 1 point = 0.05 s aerodynamic

With all these updates, the chassis was very competitive. The increase downforce do / downforce ensures a better balance of the car, the tires are working in the best way and increases traction, making the car faster.

Hardly Ferrari will build and install these updates in the car for the first test. Were initially planned for Bahrain op for up to Barcelona but since the goodness of the changes are accelerating the time to be able to bring them to the last test before the World Championship.

The very positive thing is that Byrne is considering yet another change to the fund to be able to have another increase in load estimated at 3 points (0.15s).
Last edited by Steven on 23 Jan 2012, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed intro and link to own website (again)

eslam1986
eslam1986
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Joined: 17 Jan 2012, 10:02

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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From Joseluis:

- In the tunnel, the fund gives aerodynamic gain 5 points, background + diffuser = 7 points, background + diffuser + modified parts = 9 points
- The new fund + diffuser gives 1 point less than in the CFD, no modified car parts would be 'undriveable'
- With all the parts, the car is going very well, increasing downforce improves balance, motor skills and some tires
- The problem now is to make all parts, for the first test is impossible, are watching when you put it, the issue is very complicated
- Byrne and is working on a development fund which they hope to get 3 points more aerodynamic
- The scale Ferrari aerodynamic estimates that each point is one-half tenth (0.05s)
so it will be 0.45 sec

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mith
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 18:03
Location: Wrocław, Poland

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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raymondu999 wrote:
mith wrote:
Pol_S wrote:In fact, that sketch is mine. It's only a sketch based on rumours, I don't know how it's going to be.

But I've updated it, I realized the old one didn't match 2012 specs.
Legal or not, still it's great job!

Actually that 'dolphin bulge' should be somewhere around front end of the tube, as the teams (in my understanding of changes) were allowed to recycle their tubes until next major change of the rules. So the nose has to get lower at the place, where tube ends.
tube, or tub? :wtf:
Sorry, I've misspelled it :D You can see, I'm not a native English speaker.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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No no no; relax. I was thinking along the lines of "crash tubes" as part of the crash structure; vs the cockpit's tub.
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italian
italian
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Joined: 09 Sep 2011, 11:30
Location: Italy

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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Csponton we expect some clarifications from you.
So your source is Joseluis or your own blog? :wtf:
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, but about the universe I still have some doubts." Albert Einstein
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shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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From what I have seen csponton blog (which is named f1technical also!) is just a reproposition of information floating in the web (form this forum, joseluis, scarbs, autosport), most of the time not cited, plus cited information from italian press (autosprint, gazzetta).
The info is elaborated into an Italian text which is then poorly translated to English and reposted here.
twitter: @armchair_aero

Marco Alves
Marco Alves
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Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 00:04

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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italian wrote:Csponton we expect some clarifications from you.
So your source is Joseluis or your own blog? :wtf:
http://twitter.com/joseluisf1

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Ferrari F2012

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dren wrote:
lotus7 wrote:
shelly wrote:Tombazis has a phd in aerodynamics, climbed all the steps in the windtunnel hierarchy and then became chief designer after a period in mclaren.
Costa is a mechsnical engineer who has become then deputy chief designer with byrne and then chief designer in couple with tombazis (I never understood who called the shots if the two disagreed).
It is a completely different background.
Byrne is a chemical engineer ....and that is also a completely different background
Chemical is quite far from the other engineering. Electrical, mechanical, structural, aero, etc are all somewhat related. Chemical is a beast in of itself.

the leap is not that far once you understand some basics in chemistry, thermodynamics and fluid flow.
In Chem Eng, fluid flow andthermodynamics is vitally important to understand multi path reactions in reactor vessels that house reformer processes.

the difference between a Mechanical Engineer and Chemical Engineer is that in 2nd year,the Chem guys focus much more on chemistry while the mechanical guys focus much more on Material Scince and Fluid Mechanics.
Both cover thermodynamics, and applied math.

Byrne's Chem Eng certainly helped him understand fluid flow but he learned his Race car specific skills on hi friends race cars before moving to Enland to sek out more formal employment in the motor racing scene.

He is especially gifted in visualising what he wants to achieve and has the ability to marry the fluid, thermodynamic and structural elements together to form a strong concept. His ability as a Chemical Engineer also was vital in driving the engine programme at Ferrari forward, just like he did for Ford when Benetton as their main customer team.

he is not a glamour F1 engineer and few people really understand how much he contributed to the teams that he worked for. One person who does understand Byrne's value is Luca Demontezemolo who has Byrne locked down good and solid in an "advisory role"
What that rally means is that he can work when he wants to or Luca wants him too and he can;t work for anyone else (which is more key).

Also Costa's main issue is that as a person he is too soft natured to be a really strong leader but he is one heck of an Engineer. He is massively responsible for realising a lot of Byrnes vision into a mechanical package. the leadership role of Technical Director was not suited to hi personality hence I said a few years back that Ferrari would suffer.

they have a lot of nice guys running the team now.they were excellent understudies, brilliant engineers but just lacked that strong take no prisoners attitude that the Brawn and Byrne team brought to the Scuderia.

Adrain Newey at Red Bull is another really strong character who should not be underestimated because of his soft spoken nature.

Way off topic now but I wanted to illustrate that some place a lot of value of the piece of paper carried by some "glamour" engineers e.g Tombazis.

Excelent at mathematics he is but also a personality that doe snot lend itself to strong leadership. At McLAren he simply did not fit in.
How the team of engineers works together, how their ideas for innovation is carried through into a project that may or may not end up on the car is far more important than the credentials of one person.

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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@raptor: my point was not about credentials,but about aerodynamic knowledge. If a TD lacks aero knowledge, he gets too dpendant on his aerochief.

That is valid for every discipline, but aero is very f1 specific and is a key perofmance differentiatior
twitter: @armchair_aero

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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which is why aero people aero and management people manage. Management needs to pull the specialists together.
Costa did not need tobe a strong aero guy, he needed to be a strong manager which he is not.

This comes back to credentials. You don;t need to be a strong aero guy to be technical director, you need to be a strong manager with excellent overall "view" of the various facets that makes the car a reality.

You can't blame Costa's lack of aero skills but we can blame him for not being the tough manager he needed to be at times.
management is not about being able to do someone elses job, its about knowing what needs to be doen and who can do the job if your main guy is out.

Do you think SIr Alex Ferguson was brilliant football player? Sure he contributed to the clubs he played for but he was not a Pele. He became a much better manager than he ever was a football player.

There are very few engineers who have been brilliant at their profession as Engineers and rose to become brilliant managers. I can name a few that spring to mind.

Clarence Kelly Johnson (Lockheed MArtin)
Dipl-Ing Kurt Tank (Focke Wulf, EMBRAER)
Dipl-Ing Werner von Braun (NASA)
Sir Collin Chapman (LOTUS GP)
Sir Adrian Newey (Leyton House March, Williams, McLaren, Red Bull Racing)
Mr Rory Byrne ( Toleman, Benetton, Ferrari)
Mr Osamu Goto (Honda)

I can name hundreds of Engineers who are poor managers

shelly
shelly
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Joined: 05 May 2009, 12:18

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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I see your point and I agree with that, but what I mean is different - I will try to explain better.

Costa as TD was also chief designer, i.e. he setted the compormises for the car (which probably now Byrne is doing). Having aero knowledge would have helped him in setting issues about aero needs against other needs.

I agree, and I have posted before, that it is up to the specialists to give the answers and raise the points for each field (maybe you have not read that post, because it was some tme ago); but a a td you have to know what your specialists are talking about. In this sense costa and Tombazis complemened each other; Byrne is a special case, and we are seeing by this winter rumors how special he is.
twitter: @armchair_aero

Raptor22
Raptor22
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 22:48

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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I think what you refer to is that he may have been able to make more informed choices had he been better versed in the Aero department.

And I answer to you that it depends....

The area of f1 is so dynamic that the tterm "Chief Designer" really means he's the engineering boss responsible for pulling everything together. He really has no time to 2nd guess his reports work. He relies on all the owners of the variou departments to believe in the same goal he does/did; building a winning Ferrari.

Maybe it would have helped him sift through the BS that was coming out of the tunnel. Maybe he could have sorted out the drivetrain people to provide the aero people with better data to get EBD working.

In my mind, he failed as a manager not as an aerodynamisist (he is actually quite capable in this area BTW but naturally Tombasis is more focussed and ultimately better skilled, just as Petr Prodromu is better than Adrian Newey in the aero department at Red Bull).

What separates Newey and Costa is purely personality. Engineering wise they are similar.

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Giando
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Joined: 10 Jan 2012, 17:56
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: Ferrari F2012 (pre-launch speculation)

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Hello!

What about this solution for the nose cone?

What do you think?

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