P.U.R.E Appointment

[xpensive]

I wonder if your Mercedes perspective is playing tricks with you JET, how could your opinion possibly make the MP4-29
have a Mercedes engine, I can understand if you wish that will happen, but I think that's as much as you can ask for?

I think the at least on paper very competent technical staff of PURE can give "guarantees" as good as any other manufacturer, while I guess a commissioning from a team like McLaren would include defined performance clauses
when it comes to power, fuel consumption and so on.

[WhiteBlue]

I believe the general idea with the 2014 Turbos is that they should not cost "hundreds of millions" to develop, hence the xtremely detailed rules. Then a low-boost (some 0.7 Bar) and low rev (10-14k) and the damn thing will last for a season.

The costly part will be the different recovery systems, but that is easier to fit into the general PSA development budget.

I think.

The concept of affordable turbo engines went out of the window when Ferrari and Merc decided not to have drive trains included in the RRA. The only thing that is now standing between a full cost race is the relatively narrow spec. But when has that ever stopped teams like Ferrari to spend unlimited dollars? They have the cash. The problem IMO will be solved by either a new freeze in 2014 or another delay of the introduction.

Regarding the Macca/PURE connection I find it increasingly unrealistic. There are at least two official statements from McLaren saying they are not developing an own engine. Dennis and Pollock are a very unlikely pairing. And finally it does not make financial sense for any of the parties. Peugeot are not going to fund the adventure at the present state of things and Macca has no incentive to gamble paying themselves for it. They can just as well use Merc engines.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

No need to wonder about my perspective x.

I'm more concerned by you thinking McLaren will ditch Mercedes for an unknown quantity.
Think what McLaren are gaining by doing so. Is it worth the risk?

Now had you said 2015, then I would fully back your view. But performance figures on a bench to that of the real world differ... Ask the Cosworth teams.

Re the macca MP4-29
I would hazard a guess the engine dimensions along with the turbo design and it's intricacies are of pivotal importance to any team.
Let alone the KERS requirement of whom McLaren are very close with Zytek Mercedes.
So when you think scale models will be knocking about in around 12 months time, to know who your engine partner will be in 2014, a year with huge changes in f1, will be massively important from a very early stage.

Also, Renault and merc have fired up(or will be very shortly) their V6 turbos.

[xpensive]

WB, I seriously doubt if your endless tirades against Ferrari are boosting the credibility of your posts?

JET, I would think that every 2014 engine is an unknown quantity at this point in time as none of them xist yet?

Anyway, with the dimensional engine-rules for 2014 being rather tight, I figure they will be pretty interchangeable.

I remember the 2009 Honda being rebuilt into a Brawn with Mercedes engine without much hassle, Red Bull swapping engines with Toro Rosso, Sauber replacing their BMWs with Ferraris, Lotus going Renault and so on.

But when McLaren changed their Ford HB for a V12 Lamborghini and being 2 s faster, that was a rebuild.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Brawn suspected that the Mercedes engine gained them some time, but they made sacrifices in packaging that hurt them later into the season.
The car was 18 months in development, and through its front wing and DDD it managed to stave off the red bill charge.

The situation for McLaren would be different. They for 1 aren't using an using an uncompetitive engine.
And as far as I'm aware, turbo location of the new engines is up to the manufacturer.
Something as basic as that with all the plumbing required for cooling etc is not as simple as switching a Honda v8 with a like for like Benz unit.

[xpensive]

Agreed JET, the rules seem to give some leeway, but not much, for the turbo location, though I fear that a possible intercooler, I'm still not certain they will run one, might mess things up seriously. Anyway, we're just speculating here, but I'm certain that PURE and its impressive staff is not doing this purely out of a platonic interest in a "green" racing engine?

[WhiteBlue]

The concept of affordable turbo engines went out of the window when Ferrari and Merc decided not to have drive trains included in the RRA. The only thing that is now standing between a full cost race is the relatively narrow spec. But when has that ever stopped teams like Ferrari to spend unlimited dollars? They have the cash.

WB, I seriously doubt if your endless tirades against Ferrari are boosting the credibility of your posts?

X, you can overdo it with your personal criticism as well. It is a fact that Merc and Ferrari opposed the engine RRA and that Ferrari had the highest budgets for many years. So why is it wrong to consider those facts when they matter in a discussion? The PURE issue is very much linked with the question of how those engines will be cost controlled. Any independent firm will go bust unless they avoid a cost race with rich manufacturers.

To throw another ball into the air. Why cannot Red Bull be a potential sponsor of PURE? They did consider setting up their own engine company. They obviously have to manage their Renault supply for a number of gap years. So it would make sense to introduce the engine for customers and see how that goes. There could be performance clauses in the 2014 supply contract which will allow them to switch to another engine.

[xpensive]

Red Bull ditching their works-status with Renault for Peugeot? Wouldn't that be a coup worthy Mateschitz, but I doubt it.

[WhiteBlue]

That is true, but there are few others who could be behind PURE. And I doubt that Pollock has any personal fortune to waste. So the riddle will continue for the moment.

[munudeges]

Maybe just maybe, PURE is just as they say it is. Cosworth will be gone by 2014 and PURE will be there to fill that vacuum.

Not going to happen. That operation hasn't been started to supply back-of-the-grid teams a replacement for Cosworths. They already have a primary works team lined up who they will be supplying. Pollock has stated he doesn't even care if they don't get customers for crying out loud.

[xpensive]

I concur of course, while I'm now rather certain that the unit will have "Peugeot" on the valve covers, look at the staff, quiet support from MrT and now Pollock's talk of moving right in at Vélizy-Villacoublay, the outstanding question however is which team or teams have commissioned the engine?

Although Pollock says in the last interview that they were looking at supporting a minimum of two teams, he had difficulties hiding his inside lane on McLaren's relationship with Mercedes and Haug's position on who will pay or not.

His ranting about Toyota's state-of-the-art facilities in Cologne and possible establishment in Switzerland is somewhat confusing however, but that might just be a smokescreen. While at the end of the day, someone is paying for this.

On the other hand, WB's idea of Red Bull should actually fit Adrian Newey's way of working, being able to tailor the engine to his chassis and would also xplain Pollock's talk of "minimum two teams", meaning Red Bull and Toro Rosso?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Maybe just maybe, PURE is just as they say it is. Cosworth will be gone by 2014 and PURE will be there to fill that vacuum.

Not going to happen. That operation hasn't been started to supply back-of-the-grid teams a replacement for Cosworths. They already have a primary works team lined up who they will be supplying. Pollock has stated he doesn't even care if they don't get customers for crying out loud.

Care to mention whom? Williams?...those powerhouses.....

[munudeges]

I don't know what you mean JET. Not for the first time.

PURE has not been set up as as some kind of generic replacement for Cosworth.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You mention PURE are going to supply a "works" team. Whom?

Pretty straightforward.

[xpensive]

Until WB mentioned Red Bull, I was totally convinced it to be McLaren, now I'm not so sure. A tailor made engine would fit Newey's aim perfectly, Renault has far too many customers, he wouldn't want to share his perfection with anyone.

The lure of getting control over engine development was actually what almost made him move to Jaguar back in 2001.