Vodafone McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes

[volarchico]

What I found interesting about the diagram was the possibility of an adjustable outlet, which I don't know if the teams have explored, or if the rules would allow. It could be that the complications and weight of such a system outweigh any advantage, assuming there is any.

IIRC, the adjustable outlet is key for the effect to work. The inlet/outlet ratio needs to be controlled relative to the speed for the greatest gain.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Think of it this way: if an unheated flow of air can be used to great effect, such as in the f-duct, then it's a simple step that a heated/faster flow of air will provide a greater effect.

True, but then the question is HOW are they using this effect (if they are). What I mean is: The F-Duct worked because its outlet was in very close proximity to the item it was intended to effect.

For this to work with a diffuser the outlet for this system must be nearby...

...this is assuming that:
a) This system we are speculating about even exists in the first place
and
b) If this system does exist, that it is actually working on the diffuser. For all we know it could be blowing the rear wing, or the beam wing, or...

...you get the idea.

For all the difference of opinions, the speculation is great. F1T should team up and design a car ourselves...assuming we could all ever agree on a basic design philosophy in the first place!

[officialsushy]

McLaren haven't "got it wrong" as people are saying.! They've had a a different design philosophy to EVERYONE else since last year i.e they ran a lower front-end to everyone else using a type of "snow plough" at the front of the nose to help with air flow because of the lower nose section compared to everyone else. So they, like Redbull have carried on with there design and evolved it, they obviously believe this to be the best way to go, like they did in 2011 (and who ended up with the best race car by the end of the year..McLaren..) The Stepped nose is basically just the same as there previous years car but the top half is lower due to the new restrictions on height, so I see the nose having very little effect compared to last year, it will mainly be asthetic (otherwise why didn't they go with this stepped nose last year..?), whereas EBD ban.. big change!

[ianwit]

I believe, the reason for that is, most of the teams have some experience with the design allowing as much air passing under the nose as possible, while McLaren has experience with lower noses. The other reason is possibility of recycling last year's tub what is equal to saving some money.

Newey said today "The restriction nose height which is a maximum height just in front of the front bulkhead hasn’t really changed the chassis shape very much. We’ve kept more or less the same chassis shape, but had to drop the nose just in front of the front bulkhead, which, in common with many other teams, has led us to I think I’d probably say a slightly ugly looking nose. We’ve tried to style it as best we can, but it’s not a feature you would choose to put in were it not for the regulation."

I presume they've retained most of last years chassis either for cost or (more likely?) they don't want to compromise a tub they are happy with by going for a major redesign. If RB aren't prepared to potentially compromise a winning chassis it's should be no surprise that everyone else would retain their chassis for the same reason or for cost.

[ell66]

I thought that was quite a good use of the space. I would imagine that however little drag it produces, a steep transition would cause quite a bit. Rather than letting it be "free" drag - i.e. slowing the car down without benefit, he chose to create cooling from it, which he could then take away from the other sides.

side pods dont seem as tight? or is the wheel base smaller?

Yeh, I was thining that too – there doesn't seem to be anywhere near as much floor showing at the back.

I think we need some same/similar angle shots to really judge that - heck I don't think we've even agreed upon whether or not the MP4-27 has the same/more/less free air space there than the MP4-25.

the 27 is much better in terms of packaging, dont let the high angle shots confuse you, because exhaust bulge hides how much space there is, and not only that they have kers to package now and it apears to be a lightly shorter WB, The area where they've cleaned up the most though is the engine cover towards the rear, its no where near as bulky.

Looking at the pictures of the RB8 there's noticeably not as much space at the rear, likley causes are a shorter WB, maybe that due to them not being able to run as much rake due to the blown diffuser ban.

[ell66]

When were the 2012 nose/bulkhead regs released? Unless it was released sometime in the last quarter of 2009 I'm not buying it. The MP4-25 already had the same nose, though back then the nose seemed just straight - now the nose tip seems wider, more "beaklike." But the general concept is the same.

it stated the 2011 car, not the 25 was designed with it mind. Makes no diff either way though.

[raymondu999]

The MP4-27 is the same wheelbase length as the -26. I don't remember how the 26 and 25 stacked up against each other. There have been a few comparison shots from above, but the angle is so different, and the scale off, that they're pretty much useless. Those had the bulges photo chopped off. Btw, I'm reporting our two posts so that the mods can move this into the McLaren thread

[Raptor22]

Meredith Effect:

It was employed in the North American P-51 Mustang. Cooling air was heated and expanded through a divergent nozzle to generate thrust. It added around 25mph to the p-51's top speed.

Strangely enough the Focke Wulf FW 190 A series of German war birds employed a similar tactic in the air cooling of the BMW801D 14 cylinder radial engine.

F1 cars have been using it for quite a while, probably dating back to the 80's. However the intent was effective evacuation of the heated radiator cooling air.

I postulated in the Mercedes forum that Merc could use a U pos arrange for the rear of their side pods where they could evacuate the hot radiator cooling through a divergent nozzle at the back of the poe (the top of the "U" whilst citing the exhaust in such a position as to energise that side pod exit flow. Positioned correctly and directed to the right spot (beam wing) it would speed up air flow over the beam wing resulting in a mild diffuser blowing.

[raymondu999]

When were the 2012 nose/bulkhead regs released? Unless it was released sometime in the last quarter of 2009 I'm not buying it. The MP4-25 already had the same nose, though back then the nose seemed just straight - now the nose tip seems wider, more "beaklike." But the general concept is the same.

it stated the 2011 car, not the 25 was designed with it mind. Makes no diff either way though.

I get what you're saying, but the 2011 car just replicated the 2010 nose, really.

[she_spools_180]

Being only a recent graduate of engineering, I feel almost not worthy of posting on this forum with my limited understanding, However:

I missed the part about how you suggest to heat the air. Whether it is using a heat exchanger heated by coolant or whatever, or an exhaust pipe for example - specifically NOT using exhaust gasses, as this has been established that it is not allowed by the rules - just the heat from the pipe/hot surface itself.

Taking the heat exchanger (radiator) for example, I would think that the flow of air through the fins of the radiator would be rather restricted and therefore slowed down, negating any benefit of heating the air and increasing its velocity?

Although I do not know much about the passing air flow properties of an F1 radiator...

Restricting air flow speeds it up, not slows it down – again – think what a turbo jet does – big intake, lots of cool, slow flowing air – small exhaust higher volume of hot air, ejected extremely fast through the tiny exit.

Apologies for spamming the thread a bit, but, I want to understand this.

I see, so you are suggesting that gaps in the radiator through which the passing air flows, act as a reduction in sectional area, therefore speeding up the flow?

I did not imagine it to be possible to design a radiator that would reduce the sectional area without disturbing the flow (ie, by making it extremely aerodynamic). But this is just my own visual interpretation, and I guess it must be.

The only other issue I see, is that the sectional area directly after the radiator would have to be very similar, to that of the effective sectional area through the radiator, which would be difficult to do, as I would imagine, the air flows out of the radiator over a larger overall area, and would need to be 'collected' by a larger area. Because, that would mean the flow would slow once again, losing energy. I hope this makes sense.

I hope that my interpretation of what is going on, is not too far off the mark, and can be easily corrected.

[Robbobnob]

i am not sure if there is enough heat energy per unit of flow through the radiator to cause that kind of expansion in the air

[Raptor22]

Being only a recent graduate of engineering, I feel almost not worthy of posting on this forum with my limited understanding, However:

I missed the part about how you suggest to heat the air. Whether it is using a heat exchanger heated by coolant or whatever, or an exhaust pipe for example - specifically NOT using exhaust gasses, as this has been established that it is not allowed by the rules - just the heat from the pipe/hot surface itself.

Taking the heat exchanger (radiator) for example, I would think that the flow of air through the fins of the radiator would be rather restricted and therefore slowed down, negating any benefit of heating the air and increasing its velocity?

Although I do not know much about the passing air flow properties of an F1 radiator...

Restricting air flow speeds it up, not slows it down – again – think what a turbo jet does – big intake, lots of cool, slow flowing air – small exhaust higher volume of hot air, ejected extremely fast through the tiny exit.

Apologies for spamming the thread a bit, but, I want to understand this.

I see, so you are suggesting that gaps in the radiator through which the passing air flows, act as a reduction in sectional area, therefore speeding up the flow?

I did not imagine it to be possible to design a radiator that would reduce the sectional area without disturbing the flow (ie, by making it extremely aerodynamic). But this is just my own visual interpretation, and I guess it must be.

The only other issue I see, is that the sectional area directly after the radiator would have to be very similar, to that of the effective sectional area through the radiator, which would be difficult to do, as I would imagine, the air flows out of the radiator over a larger overall area, and would need to be 'collected' by a larger area. Because, that would mean the flow would slow once again, losing energy. I hope this makes sense.

I hope that my interpretation of what is going on, is not too far off the mark, and can be easily corrected.

Radiators themselves tend to slow air down. They do his because air is not a good heat transfer medium so it has to hang about for a few seconds to absorb the heat energy and then leave. A divergent nozzle is usually mounted behind the radiator to help extract the air after its been slowed down. The air expands through the nozzle speeding it up at exit.

[Raptor22]

after reviewing all the car luanches to date, I believe McLaren retained the low nose to help Jenson see his pit box and not end up stopping at Red Bull for refreshments.

[beelsebob]

Being only a recent graduate of engineering, I feel almost not worthy of posting on this forum with my limited understanding, However:

I missed the part about how you suggest to heat the air. Whether it is using a heat exchanger heated by coolant or whatever, or an exhaust pipe for example - specifically NOT using exhaust gasses, as this has been established that it is not allowed by the rules - just the heat from the pipe/hot surface itself.

Taking the heat exchanger (radiator) for example, I would think that the flow of air through the fins of the radiator would be rather restricted and therefore slowed down, negating any benefit of heating the air and increasing its velocity?

Although I do not know much about the passing air flow properties of an F1 radiator...

Restricting air flow speeds it up, not slows it down – again – think what a turbo jet does – big intake, lots of cool, slow flowing air – small exhaust higher volume of hot air, ejected extremely fast through the tiny exit.

Apologies for spamming the thread a bit, but, I want to understand this.

I see, so you are suggesting that gaps in the radiator through which the passing air flows, act as a reduction in sectional area, therefore speeding up the flow?

I did not imagine it to be possible to design a radiator that would reduce the sectional area without disturbing the flow (ie, by making it extremely aerodynamic). But this is just my own visual interpretation, and I guess it must be.

The only other issue I see, is that the sectional area directly after the radiator would have to be very similar, to that of the effective sectional area through the radiator, which would be difficult to do, as I would imagine, the air flows out of the radiator over a larger overall area, and would need to be 'collected' by a larger area. Because, that would mean the flow would slow once again, losing energy. I hope this makes sense.

I hope that my interpretation of what is going on, is not too far off the mark, and can be easily corrected.

No, in fact the radiators almost certainly don't reduce the sectional area (significantly) – the area of the upper side is roughly the same as the area of the lower side, but the exit of the body *does* reduce the sectional area, and the radiators *do* heat up the waste air. Combine that with the exhaust potentially being used to heat up the waste air and you may have something useful. Note – may, I'm guessing a bit here, as we all are.

[adrianjordan]

after reviewing all the car luanches to date, I believe McLaren retained the low nose to help Jenson see his pit box and not end up stopping at Red Bull for refreshments.

=D>