Red Bull RB8 Renault

[bhall]

(A brief aside: Ever since I learned about our friend, Bernoulli, and his law, I always chuckle when I hear someone refer to someone else as "the wind beneath [my] wings," because it seems to imply that the person isn't nearly as important as others.)

[Adrian Newby]

Bernoulli's principle.

An airplane wing has a larger curve on the upper surface than on the bottom. Imagine two streams of air, one going over the wing, the other going under it. The stream going over the top must go faster to get to the back of the wing at the same time as the stream on the bottom. The faster velocity on top results in a decrease in pressure, which lifts (sucks) the wing upward.

An F1 A-arm must be made symmetrical to meet the rules, so the flow is normally the same on the top and the bottom. But if you put a big honkin' exhaust directly under that A-arm, the bottom side will definitely have faster flow and decreased pressure, which equals downforce.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea that the streams will always reconnect at the same time a common misconception?

It was a simplification for illustrative purposes, but yes, there are plenty of cases where the flow does not reconnect, a stall being one of the more noteworthy.

[kilcoo316]

There is no lever arm there.

Of course there is.

Unless you think the centre of pressure will be at the half span of the wishbone?!? (even then, there is still technically a lever arm - it would just mean equal loading on both supports - chassis and upright).

[Adrian Newby]

(A brief aside: Ever since I learned about our friend, Bernoulli, and his law, I always chuckle when I hear someone refer to someone else as "the wind beneath [my] wings," because it seems to imply that the person isn't nearly as important as others.)

Funny you say that, when that song came out, "You are the wind beneath my wings", I imagined it meaning that he was bringing her down.

[Adrian Newby]

There is no lever arm there.

Of course there is.

Unless you think the centre of pressure will be at the half span of the wishbone?!? (even then, there is still technically a lever arm - it would just mean equal loading on both supports - chassis and upright).

That is not a lever. Back to elementary physics, friend.

[avatar]

The stream going over the top must go faster to get to the back of the wing at the same time as the stream on the bottom. The faster velocity on top results in a decrease in pressure, which lifts (sucks) the wing upward.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea that the streams will always reconnect at the same time a common misconception?

It was a simplification for illustrative purposes, but yes, there are plenty of cases where the flow does not reconnect, a stall being one of the more noteworthy.

interesting video for a bit of clarity before we go too far off topic:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/ ... -lift.html

[kilcoo316]

There is no lever arm there.

Of course there is.

Unless you think the centre of pressure will be at the half span of the wishbone?!? (even then, there is still technically a lever arm - it would just mean equal loading on both supports - chassis and upright).

That is not a lever. Back to elementary physics, friend.

So the distance from the centre of pressure to the supports is not a lever arm?


I'll have to remember to tell the stressers that next time they go to calculate the loads on wing spars.

[JimiJams]

interesting video for a bit of clarity before we go too far off topic:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/ ... -lift.html

Good explanation, now to get back on topic here are some more pics of RB8 nose: http://pic.twitter.com/M6mPV8xD

EDIT: embedded picture



Credit goes to: https://twitter.com/#!/Khan_F1

[Adrian Newby]

I'll have to remember to tell the stressers that next time they go to calculate the loads on wing spars.

You do that. And they will laugh at you.

Wing spars do not have a support at each end.

[avatar]

There is no lever arm there.

Of course there is.

Unless you think the centre of pressure will be at the half span of the wishbone?!? (even then, there is still technically a lever arm - it would just mean equal loading on both supports - chassis and upright).

That is not a lever. Back to elementary physics, friend.

I had a think through this when I read it - as the chassis is suspended from the wheels, I think any df from the arm can be considered unsprung can't it?

even if some pressure is exerted on the car side of the arm, can't it only push down on the unsprung part as if you lower the car end of it, there nothing o push down on as the car is effectively sitting on top of the arm?
I don't see any lever that the one altering the angle of the wheel? (pivoting on the shoulder of the Tyre)

or was what I just wrote gibberish?

[Adrian Newby]

interesting video for a bit of clarity before we go too far off topic:
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/ ... -lift.html

Good explanation, now to get back on topic here are some more pics of RB8 nose: http://pic.twitter.com/M6mPV8xD

Nice close up. (Can you see why I didn't want to go into more detail than Bernoulli? Jeez!)

[kilcoo316]

I'll have to remember to tell the stressers that next time they go to calculate the loads on wing spars.

You do that. And they will laugh at you.

Wing spars do not have a support at each end.

Go draw yourself out a little shear force diagram of the estimated load across the wishbone.

Then draw out a bending moment diagram.

Then, draw out a point load on the wishbone which represents all the aerodynamic loading through a single point - the centre of pressure.

See the distance from the centre of pressure to either end - those are the effective lever arms that will tell you what proportion of load will be sent to the car's springs and what proportion will go directly to the upright.



Your desperately trying to trip me up to hit back for your mis-speak earlier (I don't really know why, is your ego that delicate?). But to be honest your failing miserably.

[Adrian Newby]

Of course there is.

Unless you think the centre of pressure will be at the half span of the wishbone?!? (even then, there is still technically a lever arm - it would just mean equal loading on both supports - chassis and upright).

That is not a lever. Back to elementary physics, friend.

I had a think through this when I read it - as the chassis is suspended from the wheels, I think any df from the arm can be considered unsprung can't it?

even if some pressure is exerted on the car side of the arm, can't it only push down on the unsprung part as if you lower the car end of it, there nothing o push down on as the car is effectively sitting on top of the arm?
I don't see any lever that the one altering the angle of the wheel? (pivoting on the shoulder of the Tyre)

or was what I just wrote gibberish?

I think I understand what you are saying... and if I do, the answer is that that part of the force gets to the chassis directly through the arm, but then must go back through the springs to get to the wheels. Making that portion "sprung".

[kilcoo316]

I had a think through this when I read it - as the chassis is suspended from the wheels, I think any df from the arm can be considered unsprung can't it?

Nah, some of it will go directly to the upright and from there into the wheel.

Some of it will go back into the car through the inner wishbone mounting point. From there, it'll load the spring and will push the chassis into the track. That proportion will of course come back through the pull-rod to the wheel, but not before it has affected the car's springs - which would be the definition of sprung/unsprung.

[kilcoo316]

I think I understand what you are saying... and if I do, the answer is that that part of the force gets to the chassis directly through the arm, but then must go back through the springs to get to the wheels. Making that portion "sprung".

+1