Aerodynamic implications of nose inlets

[hardingfv32]

Under the new nose rules would a 90 deg or vertical wall step be required to get the maximum under nose dimension?

Is there some compromise being made when when the step uses say a 45 deg ramp?

Brian

[PlatinumZealot]

What Scarbs describes is an eddy generator, not an air dam.

That is feasible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the RB8's hump design. It would just be a tweak to mitigate a little drag without adding side spill after the decision had been made to put in the intake slot.

But really, if the slot has to be in the chassis (instead of the nose), then the slot has to be at the top of the ramp if it is going to be in the hump at all. So I don't see how it could have been designed any other way (without increasing side spill).

It's still an air dam. Air dams trap air. And those are not eddies what scarbs describes - The air is not shedding across a trailing edge. That's just air recirculation in the air dam. Happens all the time with trapped air. Blowing across the mouth of a bottle is perfect example.

Scarbs sometimes read this website as a source of information did you know that? It's not wise to rely on journalistic information. Journalists write articles to make money - their info is not to be taken as a scientific paper.

[strad]

And often Scarbs is guessing just like us...maybe a more educated guess but often a guess.

[bhall]

Given the access he has to the teams, I don't have any issues with characterizing his reports as being reliable. Even simple background information gleaned from such access is invaluable, especially when considered with the often tight-lipped nature of the principals involved.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

What Scarbs describes is an eddy generator, not an air dam.

That is feasible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the RB8's hump design. It would just be a tweak to mitigate a little drag without adding side spill after the decision had been made to put in the intake slot.

But really, if the slot has to be in the chassis (instead of the nose), then the slot has to be at the top of the ramp if it is going to be in the hump at all. So I don't see how it could have been designed any other way (without increasing side spill).

It's still an air dam. Air dams trap air. And those are not eddies what scarbs describes - The air is not shedding across a trailing edge. That's just air recirculation in the air dam. Happens all the time with trapped air. Blowing across the mouth of a bottle is perfect example.

Scarbs sometimes read this website as a source of information did you know that? It's not wise to rely on journalistic information. Journalists write articles to make money - their info is not to be taken as a scientific paper.

I noticed McCabes take on the letterbox

Does the slot in the nose of the Red Bull not function a bit like the slot before the working section in a rolling road wind-tunnel? i.e., it removes the boundary layer of the flow along the front section of the nose. A fresh boundary layer, thinner and less liable to detatch, can then develop over the step.

[strad]

entirely posible and I wasn't trying to denigrade scarbs input at all,,,just noting that it is often still speculation and educated guess work

[Adrian Newby]

What Scarbs describes is an eddy generator, not an air dam.

That is feasible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the RB8's hump design. It would just be a tweak to mitigate a little drag without adding side spill after the decision had been made to put in the intake slot.

But really, if the slot has to be in the chassis (instead of the nose), then the slot has to be at the top of the ramp if it is going to be in the hump at all. So I don't see how it could have been designed any other way (without increasing side spill).

It's still an air dam. Air dams trap air. And those are not eddies what scarbs describes - The air is not shedding across a trailing edge. That's just air recirculation in the air dam. Happens all the time with trapped air. Blowing across the mouth of a bottle is perfect example.

Scarbs sometimes read this website as a source of information did you know that? It's not wise to rely on journalistic information. Journalists write articles to make money - their info is not to be taken as a scientific paper.

I disagree completely. And rotating air does not a dam make. If it did then most of the surfaces on an F1 car would have "air dams" somewhere on them.

Also, I'm not "relying on" anything, I only said it was feasible as a secondary effect.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

What Scarbs describes is an eddy generator, not an air dam.

That is feasible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the RB8's hump design. It would just be a tweak to mitigate a little drag without adding side spill after the decision had been made to put in the intake slot.

But really, if the slot has to be in the chassis (instead of the nose), then the slot has to be at the top of the ramp if it is going to be in the hump at all. So I don't see how it could have been designed any other way (without increasing side spill).

It's still an air dam. Air dams trap air. And those are not eddies what scarbs describes - The air is not shedding across a trailing edge. That's just air recirculation in the air dam. Happens all the time with trapped air. Blowing across the mouth of a bottle is perfect example.

Scarbs sometimes read this website as a source of information did you know that? It's not wise to rely on journalistic information. Journalists write articles to make money - their info is not to be taken as a scientific paper.

I disagree completely. And rotating air does not a dam make. If it did then most of the surfaces on an F1 car would have "air dams" somewhere on them.

Also, I'm not "relying on" anything, I only said it was feasible as a secondary effect.

Does the slot in the nose of the Red Bull not function a bit like the slot before the working section in a rolling road wind-tunnel? i.e., it removes the boundary layer of the flow along the front section of the nose. A fresh boundary layer, thinner and less liable to detatch, can then develop over the step.

[volarchico]

Does the slot in the nose of the Red Bull not function a bit like the slot before the working section in a rolling road wind-tunnel? i.e., it removes the boundary layer of the flow along the front section of the nose. A fresh boundary layer, thinner and less liable to detatch, can then develop over the step.

Yep, that was mentioned awhile ago, but it's not really up for debate since it most definitely does what you mention so no one talks about that function because it would be "boring" compared to damn dams, letterboxes, driver cooling, and front wing ducting.

[PlatinumZealot]

What Scarbs describes is an eddy generator, not an air dam.

That is feasible, but it wouldn't be the primary reason for the RB8's hump design. It would just be a tweak to mitigate a little drag without adding side spill after the decision had been made to put in the intake slot.

But really, if the slot has to be in the chassis (instead of the nose), then the slot has to be at the top of the ramp if it is going to be in the hump at all. So I don't see how it could have been designed any other way (without increasing side spill).

It's still an air dam. Air dams trap air. And those are not eddies what scarbs describes - The air is not shedding across a trailing edge. That's just air recirculation in the air dam. Happens all the time with trapped air. Blowing across the mouth of a bottle is perfect example.

Scarbs sometimes read this website as a source of information did you know that? It's not wise to rely on journalistic information. Journalists write articles to make money - their info is not to be taken as a scientific paper.

I disagree completely. And rotating air does not a dam make. If it did then most of the surfaces on an F1 car would have "air dams" somewhere on them.

Also, I'm not "relying on" anything, I only said it was feasible as a secondary effect.

I didn't say that.

I said what you are seeing is rotating air, in.

an air dam.

Air circulation in "crevices" Happens all the time in nature with various fluids.

You better believe the air is circulating in the crevice, in the picture below:

[Pierce89]

please let this argument over semantics die

[PlatinumZealot]

Here you go Newby.

Closet thing I could find from another source other than myself. The fluid in the picture below is not free stream away from the "pocket", but the viewer must use his own deduction to see the similarity. No need for any more semantics?

[Adrian Newby]

I don't disagree that an air dam could have an amount of circulation. I disagree that the presence of circulation in any way proves an "air dam" is present.

Here's a question for you: Assuming you weren't necessarily trying to create an air dam in front of the upper edge of the slot, how would you design it any differently? You wouldn't. The upper edge is just a radiused edge. And the bottom is just the ramp/hump necessitated by the new rules. There's nothing to see here. Move along.

Also, to an earlier point, eddies can form in the middle of the air, or the middle of the ocean - clearly demonstrating they don't need a "trailing edge".

[Adrian Newby]

please let this argument over semantics die

I also agree with this, to an extent. But what this really is... is a semantic argument over scale. More specifically, how large does an edge need to be before someone here claims it is an "air dam"? It has gone from the ridiculously large MS Paint drawing earlier, to a small circulation in front of a 1/2 inch radius (that would have had to be there anyway). In other words, the "air dammers" are grasping at straws.

Do I doubt there could be a benefit to a small eddie aiding the flow? Not at all, and I have clearly said so. But it would be a secondary or tertiary effect, and definitely not the reason for the RB8's overall hump design, as was postulated as the original reason for the "air dam" theory.

[bhall]

If it's down to semantics, I prefer air dam, so it can then be referred to as a damn air dam. I'm kooky like that.