Vritual gurney flap

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Mikey_s
Mikey_s
8
Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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Kilcoo,

it seems to me you have a good understanding of this aero stuff - rather than blowing to do the gurney flap thang, how about my suggestion of doing a bit of sucking to re- attach air flow onto the low pressure trailing edge...

I take your points about dirt, flies atc, but this part of the vehicle is on the back side of a more or less vertical plane on the high d/f circuits (should take care of the flies, they'll all end up on the high pressure side!) and presumably centrifugal force would take care of any larger particles.

My guess is that the 'suction' required need not be too large and even if some of the pores got blocked you might still get a free sandwich, even if there were no starter, dessert wine, or coffee
Mike

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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kilcoo316 wrote:Fluidic TVC and nozzle control isn't used on aircraft, despite having an easily accessible flow of compressed air [from the engine core itself] - they simply don't perform as well as mechanical nozzles at the moment (and I don't know if that is ever going to change)
That includes Sea Harrier? :?

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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manchild wrote:That includes Sea Harrier? :?

Its mechanical - it swivels the nozzles to achieve TVC.



I mean injecting air into the nozzle to perform the vectoring - totally different method of trying to achieve the same thing.

manchild
manchild
12
Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I had in mind static nozzles on tip of the wings that function similar to reactive "steering" on space ships.

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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Mikey_s wrote:how about my suggestion of doing a bit of sucking to re- attach air flow onto the low pressure trailing edge...
Hard to say - no way can I give an any way quantitative answer obviously...


But, suction is/has been researched mainly for boundary layer control of transonic wings.

In the sharp adverse pressure gradient of the shockwave on a transonic wing, the boundary layer grows rapidly. Downstream of this, using suction will remove the stagnating flow and allow energised flow to get down nearer the surface, dramatically reducing drag. It works well here because you are only sucking flow away from a small area of the wing - the bit downstream of the shockwaves [assuming you have avoided oscillating shocks in designing the wing/aerofoil sections].



For an F1 rear wing 2nd element, after, what, 25-30%? of the chord, the flow will begin to seperate - to keep it attached after this point will require constant suction all the way to the trailing edge (and probably quite a bit of suction at that) - which is a much larger operation than 5% of the chord length (if even that) for transonic flow control on an aircraft wing with the internal volume to hold the pumps and piping for such an operation.


To do the suction, you'll need the pump, and piping to the rear wing. Is the weight and power loss (you'll have to slave power from the engine to run this, do F1 cars have alternators?) really worth it? I would expect not.

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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manchild wrote: Which one is it Reca? :lol:
Let’s put it this way, you are asking a NACA duct to increase the total pressure while the aim of a NACA duct design (or of any duct), that includes the selection of some geometrical parameters to adapt it to the particular case, is to minimize the pressure loss...

Anyway, even using a pump or any mean to create the required pressure jump, you didn’t lost patent rights when you put it online, you never had them ;-) given that blowing air before/around/inside an airfoil leading edge/trailing edge/suction side etc etc isn’t really a new concept, it’s been made in several different ways.

Mikey_s :

on the Benzing’s book “Dall’aerodinamica alla potenza in F1” there are results from a test made some years ago in the windtunnel with a wing having an hole on the suction side connected with an internal camera. They also closed the hole and compared results and the system was giving a clear advantage in that particular case (it was the wing of an endurance car).
Here the results and the assembly (sorry for the quality, I don’t have scanner here so I had to take pics) :
[IMG:152:130]http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/2365 ... 7jj.th.jpg[/img]
[IMG:152:130]http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7435 ... 3sc.th.jpg[/img]
Anyway I’m not so sure that the suction side of the rear wing main element is an area very protected from dirt that could close the hole, consider that flow from exhausts isn’t very distant from there.

Edit : on the http://www.benzing.it website there’s a pic of the wing (the one on the right in the first row)
http://www.benzing.it/enrico.ali.htm

kilcoo316
kilcoo316
21
Joined: 09 Mar 2005, 16:45
Location: Kilcoo, Ireland

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Reca, did it just have a hole for the camera or was there an applied negative pressure from outside to inside?

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Reca wrote:I think that if that mechanism had some merit for F1, we would have no hope for people to forget it Ciro, blowing or suction of the b.l. are quite basic concepts..
Well, I am familiar with blown flaps and I haven't forgotten them, even with Alzeheimer starting to set in. :wink:

Reca, in case you have doubts about our capacities, let me tell you MC agreed to swallow all his notes and I did communicate with central headquarters. The men in black will be someday around your houses waving their flash-eraser-memory thingies and asking for your hard drive. You will even forget I warned you! You are dangerously close to discover what you can do by altering the b.l. and we definitely cannot tolerate humankind having flying saucers.

Besides, note how cleverly we have deviated the thread from altering the boundary layer to inane thoughts about increasing pressure with a sort of ineffective pitot tube! I already posted why internally blown flaps were abandoned and the references to the F-105 have fallen on deaf ears. Humans will never learn. Muahahahaha!

Seriously, Reca, if you take a look to the internal flap picture I posted you will see we do not need closed areas. Just a couple of ducts and an exit channel on the trailing edge of the first element suffice. This and a pump, of course. I already explained how this can be modulated to be useful in the braking zone.
Ciro

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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I translated the text of the book (in italic my comments):
Enrico Benzing wrote: At the end, to the family of high-lift devices also belongs the most simple systems for boundary layer control, on the suction side of the wing. About that, courtesy of ing. Giampaolo Dallara, the author could perform a rapid experimentation, meant as general evaluation, with the application of NACA parameters related to the flow. Starting from the coefficient of volume of the flow Cq, defined as the ratio :

Cq = Q / (V0 Sa)

between the flow thru the slot Q [m3/s] and the product of freestream velocity V0 and wing surface Sa.
The test was made on the old Dallara windtunnel, 1:4 scale, with a wing of dimensions at the limit of aerodynamic blockage, in the small test chamber, so results with too high angle of attack or with presence of vibrations weren’t accepted. The model of the wing was made in wood (with aluminium endplates) based on the airfoil Be 183-167 [max thickness 18% at 30% chord, max camber 16% at 70% chord], chord C = 150 mm and span L = 500 mm (a.r. = 3.33) following dimension of the F1 wings at the time, in 1:2 scale.
As shown in figure 3.37 on the suction side of the wing, at 45% chord, it was created a slot for suction of the boundary layer, connected with an appropriate dimension internal chamber. The model has been tested also with a flap, made with airfoil Be 152-155, chord c = 45 mm. For simplicity the flap was mounted directly on the trailing edge of the main element obtaining an average geometry of the slot [it means in a Junkers assembly, ie, without modification of the main element trailing edge to create an optimal shape of the slot]. Compared with the whole assembly, total chord C = 166 mm, the flap is 27% C. Obviously the results have to be restricted to this kind of test, with the characteristics of the model and the Reynolds adopted. In fact, after the same airfoil Be 183-167 was tested in the Orbassano’s Fiat windtunnel, for the wing of the Lancia Endurance Gr.6, in 1:1 scale, any evaluation has to be made in relation to the indicated parameters. Hence, if the real size wing (a.r. 3.35) gave –Cp = 2.05 already with i = -12° [Cp is Cl], with Re = 890000, it has to be noticed that the –Cp = 2.07 at i =-24° of the smaller model (with minimal imperfections) was reached with the smaller Reynolds (Re = 230000) of the old Dallara windtunnel. With that in mind it’s possible to appreciate, in fig 3.38, the –Cp and Cr [Cr is Cd] curves, as regression of data from valid tests, of the wing in 1:2 scale, configuration as seen in fig. 3.37 and simple sealing of the slot for suction of the boundary layer (it would have to be optimised for each airfoil and each configuration). The most significant result is that of practical invariability of drag, even at the AoA corresponding to maximum downforce. And that in perfect armony (see fig 3.39) with the same configuration where at the main element was added the flap.
And the text on the website http://www.benzing.it/enrico.ali.htm (although he really says nothing particularly useful) :
The innovation, for this Formula 1 wing, in 1:2 scale, is hidden inside the main section, and is a device for boundary-layer control, able to considerably increase downforce coefficient Cz. The realization of the model, wood, with airfoils Be 183-167 and Be 152-155, was very difficult for accuracy requirements, and was founded by Peugeot. The test was made in the old Dallara windtunnel in Varano de’ Melegari, Parma.
kilcoo316 wrote: Reca, did it just have a hole for the camera or was there an applied negative pressure from outside to inside?
No mention of a device applying negative pressure in the text.


Ciro :
I know you were half serious in your remarks about forgetting the idea, I was too in my answer but apparently not good enough to make it noticeable, sorry. Maybe it’s because I tend to be a bit peaky when people suggest that aero is what ruins f1 and should be eliminated... as someone said once, “you can’t expect turkey to vote for Christmas”...

Anyway, I’m convinced that a better use of the “memory eraser” would be to persuade everybody in the world that you are Bernie Ecclestone. I think it would give a satisfying life ;-)