2012 Stalled wings, F/ W ducts & DDRS

[thomin]

I'm not sure there even is a FW F-duct. They did test one in 2011, but the only evidence we have for it this year is the hole in the nose, which also might just feed the DRS activated F-duct on the rear wing.

[Twaddle]

I'm not sure there even is a FW F-duct. They did test one in 2011, but the only evidence we have for it this year is the hole in the nose, which also might just feed the DRS activated F-duct on the rear wing.

I'm struggling to understand this idea of a DRS activated rear wing 'f-duct'. I don't get which part of the wing is supposed to be affected by it, how it would operate within the regulations or what the benefit is supposed to be. Could you explain it in a bit more detail?

On the other hand having a DRS activated front wing 'f-duct', as described by Shelly, makes perfect sense to me in exactly the same way that the rear wing version doesn't.

Also, I would expect to have seen some photographic evidence of a rear wing system, if it existed, since that part of the car is quite well photographed.

[skgoa]

I try to explain better what I think.

With f-duct I refer to the device that, by blowing a small flow in a key area of the wing, reduces its downforce (and induced drag).

IIRC, such a device is banned geometrically on the rear wing (where it was applied in 2010) plus there is nothing that driver can activate with his body having effect on aero except for the button opening the drs.

Merc have been rumored of running a passive (no driver intervention) f-duct on the front wing; I would say it is quite sure they have run it in the final races of 2011, to solve some issues with the w02.

Up to this point your are correct.

Now on the w03 there was a first rumor about the w-duct, a front wing f-duct with no driver intervention, but more sophisticated because supposed to be reacting to yaw condition. It has been discussed in this thread also.

And this is were you take a turn into crazy-land. This w-duct cancer is only being kept alive by people going "there is a rumor..." NO, w-duct is incredibly idiotic, blatantly illegal and wouldn't work in practice.

The last, different, rumor is about a drs activated front wing f-duct.

EXPLICITLY FORBIDDEN BY THE RULES. Honstly now, is that so difficult to understand? They anticipated it and went to the length of writing MORE regulation to forbid it.
(BTW this rumor was started by Helmut Marko, who is neither a MGP representative, nor an engineer. He oversees Red Bull's young driver program.)

We almost know for sure that the w02 had a system that made the front wing lose load under certain conditions(over a certain speed?), triggered by a fluidic switch(no moving parts- "passive")

Actually, we don't. It's all conjecture that has been repeated for months now. I'm not saying it's wrong, but we have no conclusive evidence one way or the other.

PS Maybe the odd pipes spotted inside w03 "cannon" are related to this gizmo.

Or maybe they are not. Because including them in this crazy scheme wouldn't even make sense. It would be just as productive to ask "and how is the magical mercury suspension involved in this?"

I'm not sure there even is a FW F-duct. They did test one in 2011, but the only evidence we have for it this year is the hole in the nose, which also might just feed the DRS activated F-duct on the rear wing.

Or do what it does on any other car this season and any other car in decades: driver cooling.

Anybody knows if they have ever worked on mercury system? Are they using it? Anything related to that system?

The magical mercury suspension was pure speculation. When rumors started that Renault had been working on a reactive ride height system, that was seen as evidence of the existence of the magical mercury suspension(tm). Since RRH is now explicitly banned by Charlie, people have stopped talking about it.

[thomin]

I'm not sure there even is a FW F-duct. They did test one in 2011, but the only evidence we have for it this year is the hole in the nose, which also might just feed the DRS activated F-duct on the rear wing.

I'm struggling to understand this idea of a DRS activated rear wing 'f-duct'. I don't get which part of the wing is supposed to be affected by it, how it would operate within the regulations or what the benefit is supposed to be. Could you explain it in a bit more detail?

On the other hand having a DRS activated front wing 'f-duct', as described by Shelly, makes perfect sense to me in exactly the same way that the rear wing version doesn't.

Also, I would expect to have seen some photographic evidence of a rear wing system, if it existed, since that part of the car is quite well photographed.

Well, here's the latest AMuS article on the issue:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 68262.html

Unfortunately, it's still somewhat vague. I'll translate the relevant part:

...One could activate the F-duct with the same button that activates DRS. Not legal? Sure is. AMuS has investigated and found out that it's possible under certain conditions.

The rules allow the button to have secondary or tertiary functions, as long as their activation lies behind the FIA-interface and is operated by the same mechanism [as DRS]. He who adjusts the flap on the rear wing hydraulically must therefore also activate the F-duct hydraulically.


Here's a picture of the supposed slots in the RW:




The article (or rather the accompanying gallery) also states that Mercedes is definitely running a passive FW F-duct, but I'm still not 100% convinced.

[MercAMGF1Fans]

Ok, got some clarification from Scarbs on twitter..
it's actually a Front-wing F-duct which works with the DRS

[MercAMGF1Fans]

and you can't use them seperately..

@MercAMGF1Fans No the two would be permanently linked, ironically unlinking them would be an illegal change to the car

[aral]

(BTW this rumor was started by Helmut Marko, who is neither a MGP representative, nor an engineer. He oversees Red Bull's young driver program.)

Come on!!. This thread has been alive with rumours about a FW f-duct, all winter. Maybe that is where Helmut got his "rumour" from?

[dren]

I'm not discounting the idea that Mercedes has a blown rear wing when DRS is activated, in fact at this point I am guessing they have it. I do not think it is what that picture shows. I've "enhanced" many pictures of the rear wing and there is no slot where you are showing. It is a reflection. I am guessing the slot is hidden with the top flap down. I think it is in the side supports for the rear wing. If you look at some pictures, it looks like there is another thin piece that moves in that area along with the rear wing flap. I'll look for the picture.

[horse]

The rules allow the button to have secondary or tertiary functions, as long as their activation lies behind the FIA-interface and is operated by the same mechanism [as DRS]. He who adjusts the flap on the rear wing hydraulically must therefore also activate the F-duct hydraulically.

2011 rule changes - F-duct ban

For 2011 the FIA have specifically outlawed the use of driver movement to control any system that influences the car's aerodynamic characteristics. This means no more F-ducts, where the driver covered a hole in the cockpit to alter the airflow to the rear wing, allowing it to stall and cut drag at high speeds.

FIA Technical Regulation
From 3.15 - Aerodynamic influence - With the exception of the parts necessary for the adjustment described in Article 3.18, any car system, device or procedure which uses, or is suspected of using, driver movement as a means of altering the aerodynamic characteristics of the car is prohibited.

Considering this was a team instigated rule change it seems a bit off that they are now exploiting its own ambiguity. Is it a results of FOTAs problems, perhaps?

it's actually a Front-wing F-duct which works with the DRS

If it could be used to control a front wing f-duct, then why not a rear one as well?

[MercAMGF1Fans]

If it could be used to control a front wing f-duct, then why not a rear one as well?

well why would you want to? it's about balance apparently, Scarbs said he'll post something soon explaining this

[horse]

well why would you want to?

Drag reduction. Why do you need balance on a straight?

[thomin]

Granted, I'm no expert on the rules, but it seems to be accepted that the DRS activated F-duct is indeed legal.
So I would interpret it this way: It's allowed for the driver to alter the parts necessary necessary for DRS adjustment. But it's not forbidden for these parts to have other functions as well. So when I have a hydraulic system activating DRS, then that same system can be used to alter a host of other aerodynamic aspects of the car, including F-ducts all over your vehicle.

[thomin]

well why would you want to?

Drag reduction. Why do you need balance on a straight?

I think the idea is to be able to activate it in fast corners as well during qualifying. Not sure how well that works though.

[Ferraripilot]

well why would you want to?

Drag reduction. Why do you need balance on a straight?

I think the idea is to be able to activate it in fast corners as well during qualifying. Not sure how well that works though.

exactly. having the ability to use it more yields time. Typically a driver deactivates their DRS just before or during a braking zone to gain brake balance before entering a corner where they know they need the full wing. A sort of 'double DRS' like this could allow the system to be active for a greater period due to equal or close to equal downforce loss at either end of the car.

How fabulous would it be seeing the Mercedes cruise around qualifying with DRS open the entire time? I would probably cry laughing at all the head scratching going on in the pits.

[shelly]

@sqgoa: you seem convinced about what you write, but labelling what I wrote as crazy is superficial.

You have to take into account that I did not discuss the merits the w-duct at all, only cited it to make clear to other posters I was not dicussing that.

About ruling of a front wing f-duct, arguments and counter arguments of its legality have been discussed. Why do you write it is forbidden by the rules? Maybe we have missed something. Can you point to the new part in the rules that allowed for this system in 2011 and does not allow it for 2012?

I agree that especially in this preseason there are a lot of wrong rumors getting flywheeled by the net, but leaving the rumor issue aside, and focusing on the technical theme, there are still some point which can be discussed.

In my book, opening the drs gives a forward aero balance shift which could be around 5%. I think thet avoiding this could be beneficial. Note that drs is opened 56% of laptime in quali in melbourne according to amg.


So please elaborate your opinion on the tech and regs of what's being discussed, instead of throwing the baby with the bathwater.