COTA Austin - construction and infrastructure

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.

What do you think of the prospect of a USGP 2012 at Austin Texas

Good thinking. Place has good infra structure and nice climate in winter.
126
47%
Not good as it has no motor sport tradition in the US.
23
9%
I will wait to see how it will shape up.
97
36%
I don't care.
23
9%
 
Total votes: 269

xpensive
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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My rhetoric was with regards to the concept of "tax-return" to a certain activity as a principle, which I consider wrong.

I'm critical to just about everything I find unrealistic and building a new F1 track in Austin from scratch fits that bill perfectly, when I believe that spending money on upgrading an xisting road track in the US to Formula One standard would make far more sense, Laguna Seca, Road Atlanta or the Glen comes to mind.
Must be one of those which could be made operative with less of a bother and investment than this?

The entire project seems to be less than perfectly thought through, with that PSL ticket system crowning the deal.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Well those existing tracks would be in competition to Austin and would have their own set of opportunities and disadvantages. Texas though seems to have the advantage of the METF which other states may not have in that format. So it is not such a big surprise that Travis county and Austin would want to profit from the unique advantages of having all the ingredients of a proper F1 destination (infrastructure, entertainment industry, hotel capacity, airport) and a citizen with excellent connections in the racing world.

I do agree that Epstein and consorts are acting very dumb with the modifications they have planned to Hellmund's original scheme. The PSL scheme obviously is a big part of that, but not the only objection. The original scheme had RV parking, extended other parking and more Grandstands. Most of that is gone and they have failed to offer normal tickets in time for Joe average to plan his budget, not to speak of the failure to offer package travel deals to international visitors in time.
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hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Right, in theory, but if you start singling out each and every "tax generating" activity and pay them "their money" back,
it won't be much resources left for what people in most civilized countries would describe as common good, such as schools,
health care, infrastructure, judicial system, defense and so on.
But you won't do that with an instrument like the METF, because it is designed to encourage the influx of money into the state. This is an injection of new money into the state's economy from the outside. It will be spent & thus taxed, and spent again & again, thus taxed & taxed again, generating more money for state programs.

Most events, even some very large ones, cannot claim to draw significant chunks of new money into the state's economy. The reimbursement amounts are determined in large part according to this ability. The state is not losing money on these events because if there were no event there would be no new money injected into the economy, and thus no additional tax revenues to reimburse from. Texas is agreeing to forgo a portion of the extra tax revenue from one flagship event in order to secure a bigger tax revenue stream from the rest of the activity at the track.
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hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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WhiteBlue wrote: I would object much more strongly to the investment banks or automotive bail outs that American tax payers undertook on behalves of their sometimes misguided governments.

Is this because you have decided in your own capacity that Austin should not have that kind of facility that is now being build?
Agree on both counts!
The entire project seems to be less than perfectly thought through, with that PSL ticket system crowning the deal.
We definitely agree in re: the PSLs. Oy...what a mess.
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hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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WhiteBlue wrote:Well those existing tracks would be in competition to Austin and would have their own set of opportunities and disadvantages. Texas though seems to have the advantage of the METF which other states may not have in that format. So it is not such a big surprise that Travis county and Austin would want to profit from the unique advantages of having all the ingredients of a proper F1 destination (infrastructure, entertainment industry, hotel capacity, airport) and a citizen with excellent connections in the racing world.

I do agree that Epstein and consorts are acting very dumb with the modifications they have planned to Hellmund's original scheme. The PSL scheme obviously is a big part of that, but not the only objection. The original scheme had RV parking, extended other parking and more Grandstands. Most of that is gone and they have failed to offer normal tickets in time for Joe average to plan his budget, not to speak of the failure to offer package travel deals to international visitors in time.
Man...ALL of this.
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hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Kevin Schwantz weighs in on the MotoGP rights situation. It's worse than I thought:

http://www.statesman.com/sports/formula ... witterfeed
Motorcycling legend Kevin Schwantz, who figured to be the public face of that race, has been mum on the subject for months. But in February, Schwantz sent a letter to Steve Sexton, the president of Circuit of the Americas, saying, "I urge you one final time to contact Mr. (Tavo) Hellmund about obtaining the rights to host a MotoGP race in Texas, after which I would be glad to open discussions with you as the new promoter. If you have not obtained such rights from Full Throttle, then unfortunately Circuit of the Americas will not be included as a round of the FIM Grand Prix Road Racing World Championship."
In his letter, Schwantz claimed, "For the benefit of the Austin facility and our Texas fans we entered into the most promoter-friendly contract in MotoGP with Full Throttle, the creator and an owner of the Circuit of the Americas project ... It is my understanding that Circuit of the Americas had the opportunity to obtain these rights on several occasions between late 2010 and the fall of 2011 but that Circuit of the Americas did not follow through."
Full Throttle is Hellmund's promotional company. In a lawsuit filed last week, Hellmund claimed there was an $18 million deal for the Circuit of the Americas to buy his share of the company and the rights to the Formula One and MotoGP races, but that the deal wasn't consummated as planned in an Oct. 25 meeting last year in the London office of Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone.

In December, the track was able to renegotiate a contract for the Formula One race with Ecclestone after Hellmund's original contract was determined to be in breach.

No such deal has been reached regarding the rights to MotoGP.

Schwantz, a long-time friend of Hellmund's, wrote Sexton, "In the past others at the Circuit of the Americas have indicated that their group has attempted to obtain these rights from Mr. Hellmund for amounts ranging from $4 million to $17 million but that Mr. Hellmund declined."

Schwantz claimed he knew such offers hadn't been made and requested documentation of any such offers.
Here's another good writeup on Schwantz & the letter to COTA re: MotoGP rights...

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/ ... ghts-wbsk/

AMA?

Oy.
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xpensive
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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WhiteBlue wrote:Well those existing tracks would be in competition to Austin and would have their own set of opportunities and disadvantages.
...
Xactly, where my point is that one of the advantages would be less of a need to move all that dirt around, building access roads and parking lots, while there is likely to be an xisting local racing tradition and understanding around those tracks.

Epstein and McCombs seems to be lacking in those latter departments.
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Pup
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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WhiteBlue wrote:Pup's previous assertion that the regulation does not recognize contracts like the one reported between COTA, the comptroller and Travis county is also contradicted in that subsections. One must assume that Hellmund indeed had a valid contract binding the comptroller and Travis county to his ten year version of the F1 contract. Naturally this contract expired when Ecclestone voided the contract due to COTA not performing the duties. And why COTA failed to perform was also discussed in great detail. The investors failed to raise the money they were contracted to do.
It doesn't say that at all. The section you're referring to deals with an agreement between the city and state. In fact, it reinforces the fact that Combs wasn't allowed to act unilaterally.

I'm sorry, but you're going to die in the ditch with this one. The man who wrote the statute said that Combs wasn't able to make the promises in the letter, Combs herself said that her letter wasn't binding, and in fact she was being brought under investigation by the state for writing the letter until she backed down and walked it back.

In fact, I think there's a strong argument that were it not for the opportunity that the scuffle between Tavo and CotA presented, Combs would have been in some deep political doodoo. She has ambitions for the governor's seat and you can bet big bucks that the Democrats wouldn't have passed up an opportunity to bring an investigation and tremendous public scrutiny to her, the race, and the METF as a whole. The whole thing could have made the F1 funding politically impossible.

You can't change the fact that Tavo was wrong to present that letter to Bernie, the FIA, McCombs and Epstein as a binding contract that the state would provide the funding. Now, did he know the letter was worthless at the time? Did he and/or Combs commit fraud? I certainly wouldn't go that far as there's no evidence that we're dealing with anything other than Combs' incompetence or willingness to overstep her bounds - though I'd bet that the issue will come up in these proceedings should they go that far.

But either way, the letter wasn't worth doodle squat.

And even if it were, it still was never Tavo's money, and so wasn't an asset that he brought into the partnership with CotA.
Last edited by Richard on 11 Mar 2012, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comment

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WhiteBlue
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Pup, talk is cheap. I have given you detailed subsections that contradict your assertions and you simply ignore that and make more unproven assertions.

Your above post has not a single quote to show that you havn't dreamt it all up. Before I even believe one word I would like to see written proof of it.

Too much of your theories have been debunked as wishful thinking and opinion. I refer to your theories about Hellmund provoking Epstein to oust him by not adhering to his duties of signing the F1 contract over in time to COTA. All available legal sources claim the exact opposite.

Naturally I will apologise to you if we get a jury verdict to the contrary or new legal documents that will support your point of view in an irrefutable way. In the meantime I prefer to believe what is supported by the published sources which widely contradicts your opinion.
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Pup
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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So, you're going with the Brian Defense?

Prove it, no prove it again, no this time prove it even more, with numbers, no not those numbers...

:roll:

I'm sorry, but I'd assumed that you'd read the subsection that you specified, if not well, so I didn't feel it necessary to quote it. But here you go. Please note that this subsection only deals with the transfer of money into and out of the trust fund and the ability for truly major events to receive some of those funds 12 months before the event occurs. It has nothing to do with the comptroller's ability to make unilateral 'contracts' with outside parties, much less whether she's able to do so prior to the funds even being requested. It does, however, reinforce the point that she can only act in unison with the city or county...
(r) This subsection applies only to an event that the comptroller determines under Subsection (b) of this section will generate at least $15 million in state and local tax revenue. The comptroller and one or more endorsing municipalities or endorsing counties may enter into an agreement to provide that an amount equal to the amount of local tax revenue determined by the comptroller under Subsections (b)(2) through (5) of this section shall be remitted to the comptroller by one or more endorsing municipalities or endorsing counties and shall be deposited by the comptroller into the Major Events trust fund before the event. In the 12 months immediately preceding the event, the comptroller may deposit into the trust fund an amount equal to the amount the state is required to deposit under Subsection (f) of this section from any amounts appropriated by the legislature for the purposes of this subsection. The comptroller may make disbursements from the trust fund in amounts that do not exceed the amounts deposited under this subsection in accordance with the agreement to pay costs relating to attracting and securing the event. An agreement under this subsection may provide that, following the last day of an event, the funds eligible for disbursement under Subsection (k) of this section be held in the trust fund and made available to pay the cost of securing the event in future years.
I'll get back to this in a bit, just for dramatic affect, but as for the rest, your m.o. is to ignore any evidence that contradicts your theories and you've refused to acknowledge direct evidence so many times that it seems a waste of internet to post them. Plus, this has all been posted before. But in the interest of whatever you think it's in the interest of...

(What, you didn't think I'd have these handy? Oh, I know how to use teh googles.)

http://impactnews.com/articles/cta-stat ... age-2.html
Texas Land Commissioner Jerry Patterson has called for an investigation of Comptroller Susan Combs' authority in initially promising F1 $25 million before any city endorsed the race.

The crux of Patterson’s argument centers around a May 10, 2010, letter Combs sent to F1 CEO Bernie Ecclestone stating that $25 million from the state’s Major Events Trust Fund would be paid to Formula One World Championship Limited no later than July 31, 2011. Combs said in the letter that the $25 million sanctioning fee would be sent every year before July for 10 years, making a $250 million total contribution from the METF fund.

Patterson said Combs stepped beyond her legal authority, putting into question not only the F1 deal, but potentially other METF events as well.

“There are dozens of projects like [F1], and I now wonder how many of these have been funded without complying with the law,” Patterson said. “She exceeded her authority. Sometimes when you screw something up, what you should do is say ‘I screwed this up, and I won’t do this again.’ Our comptroller has a real serious problem with that concept.”

...

Patterson said Combs should be asked to testify in front of the Texas House General Investigating and Ethics Committee as well as the Texas Senate State Affairs Committee about her actions and discretion related to F1 and other METF events.
According to METF statute, an endorsing body such as a city, county or organizing committee must endorse the race and apply for funding before any funds can be committed or promised. An economic impact analysis must be made within a year of the event, studying the incremental taxes the event may generate from out-of-state visitors spending money on merchandise, alcohol, hotel costs and retail goods.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... lease.html
“This deal to give away a quarter of a billion in taxpayer dollars is a real turkey — New Jersey got their race and didn’t have to pay a dime for it,” Patterson said. “Comptroller Susan Combs exceeded her authority and ignored the law to cut this deal and she’s now trying to hide her mistakes.”
Other requirements of the law — approved by the 80th Legislature at Combs’ request — were also ignored. As of May 10, 2010, Combs’ office had not made any determination of the incremental tax increase an F1 race might bring. As of May 10, 2010, Combs’ office hadn’t even established what market area would be likely to experience measurable economic impact. Both steps are also required by state law.

“I'm not opposed to F1, but I am opposed to getting screwed,” Patterson said. “I'm also opposed to elected officials abusing their authority and committing a quarter billion taxpayer dollars they have no statutory authority to commit.”
http://www.window.state.tx.us/newsinfo/ ... mula1.html
...as is the case with all METF events, each application will be reviewed and analyzed for its likely economic impact and only after the race occurs would any funds be disbursed.

If an METF application is submitted, it will be thoroughly vetted and economic impact data scrutinized based on the actual circumstances for that event.
From the horses mouth: http://www.kvue.com/video/raw/RAW-Susan ... 78493.html

http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/investigat ... ncial-role
"OK, let me just state this,” Combs said to KXAN, “a letter of optimism and support is not a contractual obligation. I think that's really important. ... They want to know that at least there's a welcome mat laid out for them."
Sen. Kirk Watson, D-Austin – the lawmaker who wrote the bill that helped get F1 on the list of events eligible for that money – spelled out the statute.

"There's a very specific process that requires a local government or local organizing committee that has been approved by a local government to first apply,” Watson said.

Watson's interpretation suggests Combs cannot guarantee the money until organizers or the city apply for it. But those applications did not come for more than a year after she sent that letter.

"I think some people were wrong in the way they were reading that statute or they just wanted it so badly they kept talking about it,” he said, when asked about Combs' action. "She obviously made a lot of comments that I disagreed with."
Combs said clearly that the state has given no money to F1. At this time, there is no application on file for any state money.

It is worth noting that Combs has reportedly expressed interest in running for lieutenant governor in 2014, though she is currently focused on her job as the state's accountant. Patterson's has already formally entered the race for Texas' second highest position. He and another declared candidate - Ag Commissioner Todd Staples - have been openly critical about Combs' involvement with Formula One.
The first application for METF money came long after Combs’ letter said the state money would be in place. The initial request was from Austin City Manager Marc Ott on June 30, 2011, authorized by the Austin City Council a day earlier.
So, with all that, please tell me that you aren't going to stick your head in the sand and repeat your mantra that there ever existed any kind of valid contract guaranteeing the METF funds. Because if you do, then your ability to say "I was wrong" is weaker than any man's I've ever met.

Now, on any METF money being dependent on Tavo's involvement, or if Tavo's departure scuttled the deal...
On Monday, promoter Tavo Hellmund called state Comptroller Susan Combs asking whether a change in management or promoters would affect the circuit's eligibility for money from the state Major Events Trust Fund. The state has pledged $250 million over 10 years from the fund.

Combs said the race would still be eligible for the incentives in a letter Tuesday to Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone.
So, that settles that.

And, bringing us full circle, as promised here is the plain english version of the statute subsection from above, taken directly from the comptroller's website...
The Major Events Trust Fund applies local and state gains from sales and use, auto rental, hotel and alcoholic beverage taxes generated over a 12-month period from certain major sporting championships or events to pay costs incurred from hosting the event.

...

An event, which must not be held more than once per year, expected to generate at least $15 million in local and state tax receipts is eligible for prior funding to attract and secure the event. If the event recurs, the previous year’s receipts can be used to attract and secure subsequent events.
Emphasis theirs. The fund can be used for multi-year events, but it must be reapplied for every year with the previous year's tax revenue used to determine each subsequent year's funding. No recurring event (this is from the subsection 's' you cited - do I need to quote that, too?) can receive funding for more than 10 years. Again, the subsections you quote don't do diddly (alliteration!) to help your case about the comptroller's ability to make funding promises. In fact, even if you say that she was ok in promising the first year's funds (which she wasn't) this clause proves without any room for doubt whatsoever that she was unable to guarantee any amount of money outside that first year, since each subsequent year's funds are entirely determined by the actual amount of tax money the event brings in the previous year.

Do you mind if I repeat that, for clarity, and also to rub it in a bit?

This clause proves without any room for doubt whatsoever that she was unable to guarantee any amount of money outside that first year, since each subsequent year's funds are entirely determined by the actual amount of tax money the event brings in the previous year.

It could be $25 million; it could be nada.

QED, baby.

Now, since we're in an evidentiary mode, I feel a tad bit maligned by this comment*...
Too much of your theories have been debunked as wishful thinking and opinion. I refer to your theories about Hellmund provoking Epstein to oust him by not adhering to his duties of signing the F1 contract over in time to COTA. All available legal sources claim the exact opposite.
Please, if you will, provide evidence to back up your portrayal of my 'theories' as well as these 'legal sources' of which you have unique knowledge. Alternatively, you may kindly withdraw your statement and apologize.

Thank you and adieu.




* Though equally amused at your debunking of a theory by exposing it as an opinion. Bravo, my rhetorical friend.

hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Meanwhile on the MotoGP front, the deeper we dig into this story, the worse it looks for the COTA boys:

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20120310/F1/120319997

AutoWeek's Steven Cole Smith knocks another one out of the park.

Looks like COTA was trying an end-around on an already great contract in an attempt to sidestep Hellmund. Sound familiar? It gets better. It seems Epstein even went so far as to lie directly to Schwantz, claiming that he had offered Hellmund $10M for the MotoGP rights. Schwantz directly refutes that claim.

[quote]So, as for MotoGP in Austin: An Autoweek request for an update from Schwantz was answered by a copy of a letter that Schwantz's personal assistant says was sent to COTA president Steve Sexton on Feb. 17.

In the letter, Schwantz said he spoke to Carmelo Ezpeleta, who is essentially the Bernie Ecclestone of MotoGP. The letter said Ezpeleta told Schwantz that Sexton had contacted the MotoGP promoter about “obtaining rights to a MotoGP race at Circuit of the Americas.” Schwantz points out in writing that the rights have already been granted—to Hellmund, Schwantz and Full Throttle—and therefore, such inquiries should be made to them, not Ezpeleta.

Perhaps even more notable, though, is that Schwantz claims Sexton indicated to Ezpeleta that COTA has attempted to buy the rights from Hellmund and Schwantz, and that they declined the offer, in an attempt to “overcharge Circuit of the Americas in exchange for transferring these rights,” Schwantz said in the letter. Schwantz wrote that COTA executives have variously said that COTA offered Full Throttle from $4 million to $17 million for the rights, “but that Mr. Hellmund declined. Bobby Epstein,” the chief financier of the project, “repeated these claims himself, directly telling me that he offered $10 million to Mr. Hellmund for these rights. You, I and Mr. Ezpeleta all know that such offers have not been made to Mr. Hellmund,” Schwantz wrote in the letter.

Schwantz also wrote that the “actions and misrepresentations made by Circuit of the Americas appear to be an attempt to interfere with the contractual relationships that currently exist between us and Full Throttle,” and that “any further attempts to interfere with the contractual relationships between the parties will be referred to my legal counsel.”

Bottom line, then: Schwantz and presumably Hellmund are claiming that COTA is trying an end run to get MotoGP rights, rather than honor the existing contract, which Schwantz wrote was “the most promoter-friendly contract in MotoGP racing,” and which, at the April 2011 announcement, seemed to please everyone within the organization.
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Pup
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Isn't that pretty much the same thing you posted earlier? Are you going to post every reprint of that letter?

Because that might get old faster than WB asking me to repost every source for every point in every post I make.

But ok, I'll bite. How does this good friend of Tavo's Schwantz know what CotA did or didn't offer Tavo? Because Tavo told him? Until we see evidence one way or the other it's all just taking Tavo at his word, just like his CotA suit.

And why would they be trying to make an end run if they don't even know how much Tavo wants for the rights or if he's willing to sell? And how would they know that unless they've been negotiation with him?

Makes no sense.
Last edited by Pup on 10 Mar 2012, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.

xpensive
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Xcuse my ignorance here, but how does this work, is MotoGP issuing "rights" to one certain individual for every race and if so, what happens if said individual cannot deliver? What if he doesn't have money to promote it, or worse, no track to race on?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Pup
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Then they declare the individual in breach of contract and write a new one with someone who maybe does have a track.

I don't know how this Schwantz guy is involved, but it sounds like he's attached to Helmund and possibly has some money in the deal or at least has a dream of riches that will be dashed if Tavo isn't able to sell out to CotA.

So, he writes this mildly threatening letter and leaks it to the press. We've seen a lot of that from Tavo's side of all this, haven't we? Leaked letters, sob-story law suits, puppy faced press conferences. At least it's entertaining.

hairy_scotsman
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Re: 2012 US GP to be held in Austin

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Pup wrote:Isn't that pretty much the same thing you posted earlier? Are you going to post every reprint of that letter?

Because that might get old faster than WB asking me to repost every source for every point in every post I make.

But ok, I'll bite. How does this good friend of Tavo's Schwantz know what CotA did or didn't offer Tavo? Because Tavo told him? Until we see evidence one way or the other it's all just taking Tavo at his word, just like his CotA suit.

And why would they be trying to make an end run if they don't even know how much Tavo wants for the rights or if he's willing to sell? And how would they know that unless they've been negotiation with him?

Makes no sense.
No. It isn't.

There are key details in this article that haven't come to light until now. I think if anyone reads each in its entirety, they can easily see what those are.

There have been a great many articles printed on this topic around the world and in many different languages. I have only posted the ones (what, 3?) I've seen which offer something new or different, be that a different take from the author or significant new information.
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