You can say that about a lot of drivers who don't suck. There is a serious problem with this car. It's looking like a much bigger one than last year. Those acer ducts are at least part of the problem but they can't be all of it, something more is going on here.lillschumi wrote:And then Massa plain suck. If the car is not top notch he can´t deliver.
As I said beforemyoozikk wrote:The word I'm hearing from my source in another team is not encouraging for Ferrari.
I would always expect them the be there or there abouts, but my source says they have placed them about 7th fastest.
According to him, Red bull & mclaren are both looking very strong,
Merc not far behind, lotus were up there very close with this but now totally unknown due to their chassis issues & the other big surprise is Williams taking a decent step forward.
Time will tell if Ferrari can unlock this car for melbourne but word I'm currently hearing is not good I'm afraid.
As always it's speculation but for me informed speculation.
not that I'm happy about where Ferrari are at all. The are one of the great teams & should be higher than this. It's incredible seeing Alonso fight the car.AdrianoZed wrote:If they stuck with Costa and kept last years car and developed on that i think they would have been in much better shape but its easy to talk now...
I feel sorry for Alonso as he came to Ferrari expecting them to give him a car that could challenger for podiums every race I remember hearing an interview of him saying that, now it looks like he is struggling the midfield.
What i do not quite understand is it looks like they have not taken any steps forward from testing. Remembering back when Mclaren were testing their "octopus" exhaust and had a bismal winter test, came to Melbourne with lessons learnt from testing and improved massively.
Ferrari came with preety much same spec as last test, i know its too early to judge and its a long season ahead but they are a long way behind and it will be a struggle for them, especially if the car is fundamentally wrong and not just a matter of radical design that they are still coming to grips with.
Excellent post. I don't agree we give up on the season at this point, but plans should be made to do so if the car is not competitive by the 3rd or 4th race. It is possible (but unlikely?) that the basic car is good enough and just needs refinement. If it is not, then take a new path.bhallg2k wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it might not be such a bad idea for the team to completely stop developing the F2012. Before you call this a knee jerk reaction, consider the following:
Since 1990, only on four occasions has a driver gone on to win the Championship when trailing a rival from another team after the first three races (Schumacher in 1995 and 2003; Häkkinen in 1999; Hamilton in 2008). That number rises to a whopping five when you include drivers who trailed and then defeated their teammate to win the Championship (Prost defeated Senna in 1993). In all other cases, the driver who topped the standings after three races never looked back.
Ferrari could be as much as two seconds off the pace and behind as many as seven other teams. Barring a miracle, it's pretty much impossible to make up that much ground when you realize that the other teams will not be standing still.
This car is fundamentally flawed, and it cannot be saved. Ferrari clearly still have substantial correlation issues, because they were so convinced they had a winning design that they didn't even bother to plan/design/build a plan-B.
I think the team would be much better off in the long run if they put all of their efforts into figuring out just exactly what's wrong with their design infrastructure. Once devoted to pursuing that end, this season's races could and should be used as tests to investigate their design shortcomings and to trial solutions.
I nearly forgot this one: Stefano Domenicali needs to be fired immediately. His leadership doesn't work at all. The results during his tenure as team principal speak for themselves.
I think maybe their influence is the problem.donskar wrote:Ferrari added a lot of new technical people during the off-season. Did they join soon enough to influence this car?
bhallg2k wrote:[...] it's terrible how Aldo Costa was made the scapegoat for the team's struggles. In my opinion, he's not responsible for a single "dud" during his tenure as Chief Designer/Technical Director.
F2005: tires sucked.
248 F1: highly competitive, near WC.
F2007: highly competitive, WC.
F2008: highly competitive, WC.
F60: unlucky; it was inevitable that one team would hit the jackpot as a result of the formula upheaval.
F10: very competitive, near WC.
150 Italia: OK, maybe "dud-ish," but by then the effects of the engine freeze, testing ban and internal infrastructure problems had reached a peak so high that it led directly to the "radical" F2012.
Costa was Rory Byrne's right-hand man, and he clearly used that experience wisely. His loss will be felt. Count on it.
Domeincalli is not the problem. its the technical team that needs to be looked at and their way of doing things at ferrari.bhallg2k wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it might not be such a bad idea for the team to completely stop developing the F2012. Before you call this a knee jerk reaction, consider the following:
Since 1990, only on four occasions has a driver gone on to win the Championship when trailing a rival from another team after the first three races (Schumacher in 1995 and 2003; Häkkinen in 1999; Hamilton in 2008). That number rises to a whopping five when you include drivers who trailed and then defeated their teammate to win the Championship (Prost defeated Senna in 1993). In all other cases, the driver who topped the standings after three races never looked back.
Ferrari could be as much as two seconds off the pace and behind as many as seven other teams. Barring a miracle, it's pretty much impossible to make up that much ground when you realize that the other teams will not be standing still.
This car is fundamentally flawed, and it cannot be saved. Ferrari clearly still have substantial correlation issues, because they were so convinced they had a winning design that they didn't even bother to plan/design/build a plan-B.
I think the team would be much better off in the long run if they put all of their efforts into figuring out just exactly what's wrong with their design infrastructure. Once devoted to pursuing that end, this season's races could and should be used as tests to investigate their design shortcomings and to trial solutions.
I nearly forgot this one: Stefano Domenicali needs to be fired immediately. His leadership doesn't work at all. The results during his tenure as team principal speak for themselves.
Easy killer. Fred probably would've made q3. But Massa... needs to find a team better suited to him(trying to sound nice )bhallg2k wrote:I think maybe their influence is the problem.donskar wrote:Ferrari added a lot of new technical people during the off-season. Did they join soon enough to influence this car?
I posted this in another thread that got shuffled to the rear - much like the F2012.
bhallg2k wrote:[...] it's terrible how Aldo Costa was made the scapegoat for the team's struggles. In my opinion, he's not responsible for a single "dud" during his tenure as Chief Designer/Technical Director.
F2005: tires sucked.
248 F1: highly competitive, near WC.
F2007: highly competitive, WC.
F2008: highly competitive, WC.
F60: unlucky; it was inevitable that one team would hit the jackpot as a result of the formula upheaval.
F10: very competitive, near WC.
150 Italia: OK, maybe "dud-ish," but by then the effects of the engine freeze, testing ban and internal infrastructure problems had reached a peak so high that it led directly to the "radical" F2012.
Costa was Rory Byrne's right-hand man, and he clearly used that experience wisely. His loss will be felt. Count on it.
the truth of the matter is that ferrari was a shambles and something had to be done , jean todt had had 10 succesful years at peugeot but was keen to enter F1 so he seemed ideal for the jobbhallg2k wrote:Yes, he hired and subsequently paid the right people for the job. That's orchestrating.Powershift wrote:He orchestrated nothing, his biggest contribution was signing the checks.
EDIT:I'm beginning to think you should be my spokesman.banibhusan wrote:I guess what he meant was, he decided to go for a complete restructuring of the team and brought in all the key people from rival teams along with Schumacher. And that led to the such a successful era for the team.
Not to get all Briany and s**t...Pierce89 wrote:Easy killer. Fred probably would've made q3.
You did come off a little Brianybhallg2k wrote:Not to get all Briany and s**t...Pierce89 wrote:Easy killer. Fred probably would've made q3.
Given Ferrari's history, is "probably would've made Q3" enough?
Does anyone think this car will improve to such a degree that it could eventually outpace Red Bull, Mercedes, Lotus or McLaren this year?
If the majority of the team hierarchy has been reshuffled, save for Domenicali, and the team is still sliding downhill, who's then responsible?
I don't believe this season can be salvaged. Even if it could, I think it would be a mistake to even try. This time, right now, while all of the other teams are largely focused on the current season, would be better spent cleaning house in Maranello. It won't be very long until the other teams turn their attention to next year and moving forward once again, and if that happens without Ferrari being able to compete on even terms, you might as well throw away next year, too.
Yes, I do think Ferrari's problems are that severe.
