Ferrari F2012

[FakeAlonso]

Interesting article from Sky on Ferrari.
"Alonso's trip into the turn one gravel during qualifying came as they put their outer wheels on the grass under braking. Whilst this would appear to be a fairly fundamental sort of error for drivers at this level, it points to a specific trait of the car - namely its instability under braking, and this is almost certainly a corollary of an unfortunate combination of lack of low-speed downforce with the geometry of the car's pull rod front suspension.

Being normally a public road, the Albert Park track has plenty of bumps and one of the traits of a pull-rod suspension is that it's not great over bumps. To minimise its tendency to force the tyre to pull sharply sideways when encountering a bump during cornering load, it needs to be set up with negative camber (wheels pointing outwards at the bottom) so that the cornering pulls the wheel upright. That cures the pull-rod geometry's sensitivity to bumps but introduces a different problem - instability under braking because when travelling in a straight line the tyre does not have its full tread surface in contact with the track.

The exhaust On the Ferrari it is much further back - forming a blockage to the airflow at a crucially sensitive place, where the lower body tapers in.

Such a blockage would be expected to increase drag and give slow straightline speeds and also to prevent the airflow giving much of a blown effect to the diffuser, tallying with the F2012's traits. A lack of low speed rear end downforce would also hurt traction.

Either you didn't quote Sky correctly or Sky has no clue about driving or setup on a race car, everything said in this statement could be questioned as false by someone who sets up cars or drives one....first paragraph anyways...

Dont be so emotional. You have to be realistic about the current performance of Ferrari. I dont know if sky is right or no but that is worth discussing.

http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... aking-down

[munudeges]

I think it's pretty much a given that they're going to have to abandon that front suspension sooner rather than later.

[ing]

To minimise its tendency to force the tyre to pull sharply sideways when encountering a bump during cornering load, it needs to be set up with negative camber (wheels pointing outwards at the bottom) so that the cornering pulls the wheel upright. That cures the pull-rod geometry's sensitivity to bumps but introduces a different problem - instability under braking because when travelling in a straight line the tyre does not have its full tread surface in contact with the track.[/i]

Although they're a bit mixed up - the pull-rod layout, per se, does not affect the front wheels' camber - I think they are referring to the geometry of the high-mounted wishbones pick-ups on the chassis.

I think this geometry causes two problems, besides a high roll center and higher jacking loads:

1) Higher lateral scrub - the tire contact patch moves laterally as the wheel moves up, and

2) Insufficient camber gain - not enough negative camber gain as the wheel moves up, for example on the outer wheel as the car rolls in a corner.

For the latter, it can be compensated by adding a higher amount of static negative camber - this is what I think they are referring to.

Are they right? Who knows!

[Vanja #66]

Interesting article from Sky on Ferrari.
"Alonso's trip into the turn one gravel during qualifying came as they put their outer wheels on the grass under braking. Whilst this would appear to be a fairly fundamental sort of error for drivers at this level, it points to a specific trait of the car - namely its instability under braking, and this is almost certainly a corollary of an unfortunate combination of lack of low-speed downforce with the geometry of the car's pull rod front suspension.

Being normally a public road, the Albert Park track has plenty of bumps and one of the traits of a pull-rod suspension is that it's not great over bumps. To minimise its tendency to force the tyre to pull sharply sideways when encountering a bump during cornering load, it needs to be set up with negative camber (wheels pointing outwards at the bottom) so that the cornering pulls the wheel upright. That cures the pull-rod geometry's sensitivity to bumps but introduces a different problem - instability under braking because when travelling in a straight line the tyre does not have its full tread surface in contact with the track.

The exhaust On the Ferrari it is much further back - forming a blockage to the airflow at a crucially sensitive place, where the lower body tapers in.

Such a blockage would be expected to increase drag and give slow straightline speeds and also to prevent the airflow giving much of a blown effect to the diffuser, tallying with the F2012's traits. A lack of low speed rear end downforce would also hurt traction.

We saw a lot of drivers making mistakes similair to Alonsos, and Ferrari is the only car fith rull-rod front... So, how come they also experienced same problems? I really, really dont thnik that Scuderia would not have said that there are (even this would suffice) some dificulties with front end... Fry hadnt said a thing about it, and for now (at least for me), he is the man to be listened to.

[FakeAlonso]

Among the rumors for the new designed car by Spanish Gp also it is believed that Massa has only 9 races left, and Ferrari is considering between 6-8 drivers for his replacment.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Hughes is full of it regarding the suspension as the underlying cause. I think of course the Ferrari problems are down to two things: lack of suspension set up knowledge & lack of downforce.

Suspension setup: Ferrari has a lack of knowledge here compared to the others that have been using pull rod. These teams did not magically find the sweet spot. It took time. The same applies for Ferrari. Sure I think they will make a few tweaks on the suspension, but I don't see them ditching the front pull for push.

Lack of DF: Obviously the biggest problem for the team and the main reason for lack of pace & for the poor tyre wear. I do think as Hughes said, the launch exhaust was too far towards the rear, hence why they ate the tyres so bad in testing. And I think more than likely the Acer ducts are disrupting air flow. Which is a bit worrying it wasn't found in the design phase or even before testing. I think it shows Ferrari seriously needs to upgrade it's CFD facility. Something Pat Fry says they are doing. It just can't happen quick enough for my liking.

[FakeAlonso]

Hughes is full of it regarding the suspension as the underlying cause. I think of course the Ferrari problems are down to two things: lack of suspension set up knowledge & lack of downforce.

Suspension setup: Ferrari has a lack of knowledge here compared to the others that have been using pull rod. These teams did not magically find the sweet spot. It took time. The same applies for Ferrari. Sure I think they will make a few tweaks on the suspension, but I don't see them ditching the front pull for push.

Lack of DF: Obviously the biggest problem for the team and the main reason for lack of pace & for the poor tyre wear. I do think as Hughes said, the launch exhaust was too far towards the rear, hence why they ate the tyres so bad in testing. And I think more than likely the Acer ducts are disrupting air flow. Which is a bit worrying it wasn't found in the design phase or even before testing. I think it shows Ferrari seriously needs to upgrade it's CFD facility. Something Pat Fry says they are doing. It just can't happen quick enough for my liking.

I agree with you Crucial that is a bit worrying that they cant find these kind of problems in the CFD simulations and then wind tunnel. I think this is a major issue for them because the CFD has replaced private testing now. Can you imagine Ferrari 12 years ago not doing any private testing??? No. Well is the same today if they dont have a strong CFD department they will loose more time trying to understand problems and then slow development and eventually another championship gone. So I agree with you that one of the areas with High priority for Ferrari is to have a top cfd facility and people like Prodromou so they can gain some performance.

[FakeAlonso]

According to the Ferrari site Massa will have new chassis.

...work has already begun in the Sepang pits to prepare chassis number 294, which replaces the number 293 and will be used by the Brazilian in the second race of the season. This choice was taken to clear up any doubts about the unusual performance of his car during the weekend at Albert Park.

[aral]

Among the rumors for the new designed car by Spanish Gp also it is believed that Massa has only 9 races left, and Ferrari is considering between 6-8 drivers for his replacment.

Rumours, rumours! But Di Montezemelo has always said that Massa would have to show he is on pace by mid season. The fact that a new chassis is being fitted out for Massa, is an indication that there was a problem with his chassis, not with the driver!

[FakeAlonso]

Among the rumors for the new designed car by Spanish Gp also it is believed that Massa has only 9 races left, and Ferrari is considering between 6-8 drivers for his replacment.

Rumours, rumours! But Di Montezemelo has always said that Massa would have to show he is on pace by mid season. The fact that a new chassis is being fitted out for Massa, is an indication that there was a problem with his chassis, not with the driver!

I dont think the main problem now is Massa but the car. Needs a lot of work.

[xpensive]

I think it's pretty much a given that they're going to have to abandon that front suspension sooner rather than later.

I concur of course, if this was in the days of the aluminium-tub, they would surely been converting a chassis for a conventional front suspension already, but that is perhaps not possible to with a composite such, why they probably need a new tub?

[WhiteBlue]

It appears to me that The F2012 needs work in all areas of typical 2012 development.

• exhaust configuration
• front suspension
• rear wing stalling
• front wing stalling

[raymondu999]

According to the Ferrari site Massa will have new chassis.

...work has already begun in the Sepang pits to prepare chassis number 294, which replaces the number 293 and will be used by the Brazilian in the second race of the season. This choice was taken to clear up any doubts about the unusual performance of his car during the weekend at Albert Park.

Sounds like a typical confidence upgrade

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I think it's pretty much a given that they're going to have to abandon that front suspension sooner rather than later.

I concur of course, if this was in the days of the aluminium-tub, they would surely been converting a chassis for a conventional front suspension already, but that is perhaps not possible to with a composite such, why they probably need a new tub?

You've been on and on about the pull rod front, and I think it's obvious they know something you don't. I may very well have to eat my words, but while they will probably modify the suspension a little bit, they're not changing out the pull for push.
You don't like the geometry and that's all well and good, but others say it's not a problem at all. I guess it's down to difference of opinion. Yes teams make mistakes all the time, but Ferrari said they did much research in this area and have concluded it won't be a problem. You refuse to believe otherwise. Time will tell, and I'll eat some crow if I'm wrong. But the team has already said they are not changing the chassis, hence not changing the pull rod front.

[timbo]

I think the problem is the pitch sensitivity of the car.