Ferrari F2012

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Location: Charlotte

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Pro's & Con's of Ferrari's Pull-rod front suspension:



Ferrari front pull-rod

When the rumour of front pull-rod was circulated during the pre-season, it didn't seem realistic that this could work. At the rear the low position of the gearbox makes the pull-rod geometry easy to achieve, but at the front the chassis is some 30cm in the air; this places the pull-rod nearly horizontally.

Intuitively, this looks like the rod would barely move the rocker as the wheel rises. But the pull-rod actually operates by creating a triangle with the wishbone, so in actual fact it's the angle between the wishbone and pull-rod that creates the displacement. When comparing Ferrari's pull-rod geometry to a push-rod, the relative angles are the same and therefore both operate the rocker equally efficiently.

So clearly Ferrari has found a solution that has similar geometry to the push-rod that went before it. So it's unlikely that they have gone this route for improvement in operating suspension. The most likely benefit will be aerodynamics and packaging.

Aerodynamics may seem an odd benefit; it's true the pull-rod can be thinner, which might create a small benefit, but it's likely the near horizontal position of the pull-rod is the key to the real benefit. Teams already shape their wishbones to manage airflow off the front wing. Within the tight rules, quite a lot of aero effect is achieved with the wishbones. As the pull-rod is horizontal compared to the angled push-rod, it can be more effective in altering the airflow over the car.


Image

Also the packaging around the front brake ducts becomes easier compared to push-rod, as a pull-rod no longer passes straight through the area where the cooling scoop is fitted. This creates more freedom for the designer to shape the brake ducts.

With the F2012's nose and chassis being raised to their maximum, the centre of gravity of the car will be also be raised. As pull-rod effectively turns the push-rod system upside down, the weight of the rockers, torsion bars and other mechanical parts are now placed at the bottom of the nose, rather than the top. This helps lower the centre of gravity a little, to offset the new nose design.

However, no gains come without compromises. Having the pull-rod mounted to the top wishbone creates much greater loads in the wishbone. This means the wishbone and its mounting with the chassis need to be stronger, this will cost some weight.

Ferrari appeared to have struggled in the first test. With so many new solutions on the car it's hard to pinpoint what might be causing the issues. Going its own direction with pull-rod suspension at the front might be seen a risk this year, but with suspension simulation on both computer software and on the seven-post rig, it's unlikely the pull-rod set-up will be contributing to the problems.

Overall, the gains for a pull-rod set-up are small, but clearly worth chasing. Ferrari has stolen a march on its competitors with the front pull-rod. Its rivals will not be able to react to the change this year, due to a completely now monocoque and front suspension being needed. For such a small gain, this would be a time consuming and expensive change mid-season. No doubt this concept will go onto the "to do" list of the design teams for their 2013 cars.


Above is from ScarbsF1

So while some here think the front pull-rod is a problem. Many don't. Including Ferrari which operates their own F1 team. The bottom line has nothing to do with ego or being too proud to say you messed up. Teams want to win, bottom line. If they see something isn't working and it's detrimental, they fix/change it. There are too many engineers and too much pressure to keep the pull-rod if it isn't working because they're afraid to admit it.

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:Pro's & Con's of Ferrari's Pull-rod front suspension:



Ferrari front pull-rod

When the rumour of front pull-rod was circulated during the pre-season, it didn't seem realistic that this could work. At the rear the low position of the gearbox makes the pull-rod geometry easy to achieve, but at the front the chassis is some 30cm in the air; this places the pull-rod nearly horizontally.

Intuitively, this looks like the rod would barely move the rocker as the wheel rises. But the pull-rod actually operates by creating a triangle with the wishbone, so in actual fact it's the angle between the wishbone and pull-rod that creates the displacement. When comparing Ferrari's pull-rod geometry to a push-rod, the relative angles are the same and therefore both operate the rocker equally efficiently.

So clearly Ferrari has found a solution that has similar geometry to the push-rod that went before it. So it's unlikely that they have gone this route for improvement in operating suspension. The most likely benefit will be aerodynamics and packaging.

Aerodynamics may seem an odd benefit; it's true the pull-rod can be thinner, which might create a small benefit, but it's likely the near horizontal position of the pull-rod is the key to the real benefit. Teams already shape their wishbones to manage airflow off the front wing. Within the tight rules, quite a lot of aero effect is achieved with the wishbones. As the pull-rod is horizontal compared to the angled push-rod, it can be more effective in altering the airflow over the car.


Image

Also the packaging around the front brake ducts becomes easier compared to push-rod, as a pull-rod no longer passes straight through the area where the cooling scoop is fitted. This creates more freedom for the designer to shape the brake ducts.

With the F2012's nose and chassis being raised to their maximum, the centre of gravity of the car will be also be raised. As pull-rod effectively turns the push-rod system upside down, the weight of the rockers, torsion bars and other mechanical parts are now placed at the bottom of the nose, rather than the top. This helps lower the centre of gravity a little, to offset the new nose design.

However, no gains come without compromises. Having the pull-rod mounted to the top wishbone creates much greater loads in the wishbone. This means the wishbone and its mounting with the chassis need to be stronger, this will cost some weight.

Ferrari appeared to have struggled in the first test. With so many new solutions on the car it's hard to pinpoint what might be causing the issues. Going its own direction with pull-rod suspension at the front might be seen a risk this year, but with suspension simulation on both computer software and on the seven-post rig, it's unlikely the pull-rod set-up will be contributing to the problems.

Overall, the gains for a pull-rod set-up are small, but clearly worth chasing. Ferrari has stolen a march on its competitors with the front pull-rod. Its rivals will not be able to react to the change this year, due to a completely now monocoque and front suspension being needed. For such a small gain, this would be a time consuming and expensive change mid-season. No doubt this concept will go onto the "to do" list of the design teams for their 2013 cars.


Above is from ScarbsF1

So while some here think the front pull-rod is a problem. Many don't. Including Ferrari which operates their own F1 team. The bottom line has nothing to do with ego or being too proud to say you messed up. Teams want to win, bottom line. If they see something isn't working and it's detrimental, they fix/change it. There are too many engineers and too much pressure to keep the pull-rod if it isn't working because they're afraid to admit it.
Bud, give it up. Some people here get their jollies winding others up.( I'm looking at you Seg or "mun")
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Abarth
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Joined: 25 Feb 2011, 19:47

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Compared to aerodynamics, kinematics and dynamics can be simulated more easily and with good precision. And I believe that at least in that department, Ferrari is on par with the competitors.
Therefore, I don't believe that the pull rod in front is part of the big issues this car has.

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Afterburner
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:24

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote: No, I'm going off the interview where Stefano Domenicali was specifically asked if they were going to change the chassis and he said no. That's about as solid as you get. Not some speculation about how you think the suspension is working. And to say they just don't know that it's bad and needs to be changed is preposterous. For someone who has no access to the telemetry to say it's wrong with no physical evidence, but claim the team who has qualified engineers & mechanics, doesn't know is funny. Maybe some of you should go work for Ferrari or other teams.

Edit: Pat Fry has been asked about the front pull rod and whether or not it's causing problems. He said no it isn't. <-- another part of my "crystal ball"
What i'm trying to say to you it's that if front suspension it's giving them some kind of problems they may not say it for many reasons, new tub, many new parts and too much time spend in iteractions or maybe from a psychological point of view they don't want to admit it, drivers and tiffosi would loose to much confidence.

Don't remember who said, but someone said that top wishbones from the pull rod are too heavy and too high...

I admire your confidence on this car saying the aero on the rear it's the only problem but i think it's more than that, i'm afraid they are going to change a car they don't even know very well.

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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Pierce89 wrote: Bud, give it up. Some people here get their jollies winding others up.( I'm looking at you Seg or "mun")
Will do Pierce.




@Abarth That's more or less my point all along. Never said it was perfect, I expect some tweaks and more time figuring how to set it up, but I don't think it's the reason for all the problems. Either way I'm dropping the subject now. :)

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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My last bit on the F2012 pull rod front suspension.

Image

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banibhusan
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Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 13:08

Re: Ferrari F2012

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:My last bit on the F2012 pull rod front suspension.
And to your support here is another tweet from scarbs:

Image

munudeges
munudeges
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Joined: 10 Jun 2011, 17:08

Re: Ferrari F2012

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While I respect Scarbs greatly I'm afraid that I respectfully do not agree with his assertion that they are both mechanically equivalent simply because it maintains the same contact patch. There's more to it than that. Maybe a mechanical engineer can chime in further on here but I've explained my position on it. The big objection I have is in being able to tune the handling of the car. You can simply do less with it.

In terms of its advantages then the biggest you'd look for is a centre of gravity improvement, but surely with the greater forces involved you'd need to strengthen the top wishbone and the rod itself adding weight and negating anything you're getting? Then you're left with aerodynamic benefits, but it's not as if the push-rod was directly in the way of a diffuser........

On top of that you're going to be hard-pushed to find anyone in the pitlane who agrees given that no other team is even considering implementing it - if all we're doing is gathering other peoples' opinions here.......

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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munudeges wrote:While I respect Scarbs greatly I'm afraid that I respectfully do not agree with his assertion that they are both mechanically equivalent simply because it maintains the same contact patch. There's more to it than that. Maybe a mechanical engineer can chime in further on here but I've explained my position on it. The big objection I have is in being able to tune the handling of the car. You can simply do less with it.

In terms of its advantages then the biggest you'd look for is a centre of gravity improvement, but surely with the greater forces involved you'd need to strengthen the top wishbone and the rod itself adding weight and negating anything you're getting? Then you're left with aerodynamic benefits, but it's not as if the push-rod was directly in the way of a diffuser........

On top of that you're going to be hard-pushed to find anyone in the pitlane who agrees given that no other team is even considering implementing it - if all we're doing is gathering other peoples' opinions here.......
If I'm not mistaken, Scarbs is a mechanical engineer? With the pull rod front you are limited in adjustments(Gary Anderson says load transfer) in comparison to the push rod?? I just don't believe that's what is causing the cars problems. The car has shown decent pace on full tanks, which leads me again to more aero problems.

The team said they had to strengthen the suspension to deal with the greater loads as you say above. But I think what you're missing is it's a package deal. It's whats the best package the team felt they could put together. They decided on the high nose, the pull rod helps compensate for the higher CoG. Then you have the aero benefits in comparison to the push rod. And then you have Ferrari's age old problem of heating the tyres from lap one. This is no longer a problem.
Every solution has pro's & con's and I think they decided this setup would help them best with their problems.

I mean honestly we none of know for sure what's going on, but there are always educated guesses. Either way we'll find out soon enough whether it's a problem or not. It's just the reluctance from some to concede that it might not be the pull rod at all. These are the same people who have maintained from day one it wouldn't work. That's not necessarily the case.
Last edited by Crucial_Xtreme on 21 Mar 2012, 20:45, edited 2 times in total.

scarbs
scarbs
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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munudeges wrote:The big objection I have is in being able to tune the handling of the car. You can simply do less with it.
I don't understand how you've reached that conclusion? We are talking about a rod operating the same dampers, springs and other elements with the same motion ratio, just in a different direction?

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banibhusan
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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munudeges wrote:
On top of that you're going to be hard-pushed to find anyone in the pitlane who agrees given that no other team is even considering implementing it - if all we're doing is gathering other peoples' opinions here.......
Exactly mate. People here and in many other places, have multitudes of opinions about whether the pull rod is working or not. But we can't be sure unless we can be presented with some authentic facts that it's indeed the pull rod that's failing them. It may one of the factors or it may not be. Only time will tell. But till then, I do believe in this team and in the fact that they would definitely have considered these aspects before moving on with an all pull rod suspension geometry.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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munudeges wrote:While I respect Scarbs greatly I'm afraid that I respectfully do not agree with his assertion that they are both mechanically equivalent simply because it maintains the same contact patch. There's more to it than that. Maybe a mechanical engineer can chime in further on here but I've explained my position on it. The big objection I have is in being able to tune the handling of the car. You can simply do less with it.
...
- I find it reasonable that the more rod-movement you have, the more freedom to play with stiffness and progressivity,
while it's rather obvious at least to me that the push-rod is superior to the pull-rod in that respect?

- As energy is force times length of travel, the longer push-rod travel means less force for the same suspension energy.

- Then you have the practical aspects of changing settings, which should be obvious to anyone which one has the edge?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Vanja #66
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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OK, lets assume that pull-rod front is actualy a bad idea (I'm not saying its not, nor that it isnt, just assuming), but the team wont admit it... We would have had a situation where if there was a problem with it, we could very clearly see it... Remember FP1 in AUS, Alonso's F2012 was so nervous exiting last corner. Logically, there is a problem, needs to be sloved, its all too clear. In the same way, I belive we would have seen a lot worst Ferrari entering corners than it is, if there was a problem with the front... At any case, even if there was a problem with it, its a lot lot smaller than with the back, so there really isn't a sane reason to change it, when other areas are screaming for major improvements that require all of teams engineers' attention...
AeroGimli.x

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AbbaleRacing77
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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I dont think that pullrod in the front is the issue here... Ill agree with scarbs the only difference is the direction of the dampening and its a simple reversal of the valve stacks in the shock. Then to make sure that the new sytem is on par it is tested with a dyno to ensure that the dampening is similar or on par to what theyve had in the past. As long as the the front A arm geometry is correct nothing should change versus push rod.

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Afterburner
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Re: Ferrari F2012

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Gary Henderson says it all:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmyv68uw0bk[/youtube]