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Team: Pat Fry (TD), Nikolas Tombazis (CD), Stefano Domenicali (MD)
Drivers: Fernando Alonso (5), Felipe Massa (6)
I'm afraid it's not that simple in reality, there's clearance and deflection in everything, while the smaller the displacements and higher the loads, the more those two evil parameters count. To a detrimental effect I should add.timbo wrote:As already said what's important is damper/spring travel, and that can be adjusted by a rocker.xpensive wrote: ...
Those fat wishbones tells a story about high compression forces and the short pull-rod travel makes the window of stiffness
and progressitivity xtremely small and delicate to adjust I can imagine.
The wheel movement and spring/damper movement is more or less the same as it is in a pushrod setup. Its only the amount of movement of the linkage itself that changes and the method of loading. can you clarify what those effects you mention are, how they arise and what effect they have on vehicle dynamics in a clearer way?xpensive wrote: I'm afraid it's not that simple in reality, there's clearance and deflection in everything, while the smaller the displacements and higher the loads, the more those two evil parameters count. To a detrimental effect I should add.
Sounds logical, but it's well known that some drivers detest understeer so much that if the front isn't pointy enough and they can't dial in any more front grip, they'll start intentionaally throwing away rear grip.Which could make a car with bad front grip look oversteery instead. I don't think this is the case at Ferrari. Just pointing out that little caveat in your otherwise perfectly logical and succinct post.Chuckjr wrote:If the back end of the car is loose (as it has clearly shown to be), wouldn't common sense tell you the front end is gripping so much that the rear cannot keep up--in this case, the front is working so well that its emphasizing the rear problems? It seems insessent pushing would be more of a barometer for a front end fundamental problem than a loose rear end?
bhallg2k wrote:It wouldn't surprise me at all to discover that everyone who's posted any ideas whatsoever about the F2012's problems is correct in their assertion(s).
That is true, it's the pull-rod linkage that becomes the problem when suspension energy is transferred from movement to force, every joint has an inherent clearance and stiffness and the more force and less movement, the more said parameters count in a relative way, ie the linkage becomes less precise.Lycoming wrote: ...The wheel movement and spring/damper movement is more or less the same as it is in a pushrod setup. Its only the amount of movement of the linkage itself that changes and the method of loading. can you clarify what those effects you mention are, how they arise and what effect they have on vehicle dynamics in a clearer way?xpensive wrote: I'm afraid it's not that simple in reality, there's clearance and deflection in everything, while the smaller the displacements and higher the loads, the more those two evil parameters count. To a detrimental effect I should add.
I'm with Scarbs -- the pitch-sensitivity of the car is the problem. The whole rear aero probably works OK when the car is on the straight line or on fast curve (neutral attitude), but on the corner exit (nose up attitude) the airflow is probably disrupted to a degree. They probably try to compensate it with harder rear suspension but that also promotes oversteer.kebab wrote:One thing I still dont understand is that one 1 hand we say the car rear end is too loose and on the other hand we say its due to the exhaust. I think exhaust problem only contribute while the car is cornering and the exhaust blown has already been banned. On the straight this should not be a problem, no?
Im worried that the problem with the car isnt only it exhaust or the acer duck, some bigger things are wrong and I hope this isnt the case.
To me that sounds a lot more plausible than many of the suggestions flying around here. It could also help explain why their car seems to be so inefficient - they lack rear downforce but still have huge amount of drag. If they are generating plenty of downforce from a draggy car but are then losing it at times does to pitch sensitivity then that would explain their straight line speed. Coupled with a higher CofG at the front and I can see how that would all add up to a poor handling car.timbo wrote:I'm with Scarbs -- the pitch-sensitivity of the car is the problem. The whole rear aero probably works OK when the car is on the straight line or on fast curve (neutral attitude), but on the corner exit (nose up attitude) the airflow is probably disrupted to a degree. They probably try to compensate it with harder rear suspension but that also promotes oversteer.kebab wrote:One thing I still dont understand is that one 1 hand we say the car rear end is too loose and on the other hand we say its due to the exhaust. I think exhaust problem only contribute while the car is cornering and the exhaust blown has already been banned. On the straight this should not be a problem, no?
Im worried that the problem with the car isnt only it exhaust or the acer duck, some bigger things are wrong and I hope this isnt the case.
2xpensive -- if they have problems with front suspension due to what you say, it should probably cause understeer on the corner entry. Not the trait F2012 shown so far, no?
