Ferrari F2012

[xpensive]

Martin Brundle confirms from Ferrari mechanics/engineers that the pull rod suspension isn't the problem. I believe the exact words from Ferrari were "since when did a suspension cause a lack of downforce?"

I hope someone from Ferrari really didn't say that.

I agree, the only thing the driver can detect is the amount of grip, or lack of it, which comes from downforce but also from several other parameters, such as an unstable front suspension for xample.

[timbo]

I agree, the only thing the driver can detect is the amount of grip, or lack of it, which comes from downforce but also from several other parameters, such as an unstable front suspension for xample.

The car does not seem to have much understeer.

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

I think the car had no understeer or oversteer, it's just slow. She's lack downforce.

[WhiteBlue]

Can somebody confirm that a change of the suspension from pull rod to push rod on the F2012 would necessitate a new chassis? I do not see how they can change that unless the chassis had the necessary fixture already included in his first design. Does anybody know whether that is the case?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Can somebody confirm that a change of the suspension from pull rod to push rod on the F2012 would necessitate a new chassis? I do not see how they can change that unless the chassis had the necessary fixture already included in his first design. Does anybody know whether that is the case?

Yes it would need a new chassis hence new crash test. The team confirmed today there would be no new chassis or new crash tests.

[amouzouris]

is it me or does anyone else also think that sooner or later they will do a new crash test..and not just ferrari..every team... to make way for the FWFD tubing...as we saw today it can be a very good weapon in qualy..

EDIT: actual sooner than later

[marcush.]

Can somebody confirm that a change of the suspension from pull rod to push rod on the F2012 would necessitate a new chassis? I do not see how they can change that unless the chassis had the necessary fixture already included in his first design. Does anybody know whether that is the case?

just think about it..the load paths are completely different and it would be a wonder if you could package something BETTER into the available pickups without altering significantly the structure (tub).Question is why would you start off with the second best option?

revising the front suspension that much alters pretty much everything..as the decision pull or push is taken quite early in the design process methinks.So conflicts everywhere not much carryover ..forget it.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

just think about it..the load paths are completely different and it would be a wonder if you could package something BETTER into the available pickups without altering significantly the structure (tub).Question is why would you start off with the second best option?

revising the front suspension that much alters pretty much everything..as the decision pull or push is taken quite early in the design process methinks.So conflicts everywhere not much carryover ..forget it.

Agreed 110%. Fernando just confirmed in the press conference they would not be bringing a new car to Barcelona.

From a McLaren fans point of view on what was said--> The Sky Sports bit from Brundle in the post-quali Sky coverage. He said that he had spoken to some Ferrari mechanics and insiders and they had pretty much confirmed that their problems still lie with fact that that their computer systems are not aligning with the on-track data and telemetry. This has meant that their issues lie squarely with the aero on the car. the suspension is just a red herring and isn't the cause or solution to their problems.

[Postmoe]

bhall, you're right, but I think they meant lack of rear downforce. It's all narrowly connected, but the point is that real problem lies in the lack of rear DF, not the front suspension... Dont see why this discussion is still ongoing...

'Cause that's what we do around here. Haven't you noticed?

Ferrari's problems are well documented. We all know what they are. It just reeks of ignorance for a Ferrari team member, whoever it is, to say something like that.

Knowing that you're statement is well documented and causality relations are easily found from the internets, I really don't understand why the guy is there and why you are here. Intriguing.

Yes, it's so obvious that front suspension elements interfere with rear DF, especially if the FS is less obstructive with airflow. For good rear DF obstruction is ideal.

OK, ride height is influential, but ride height is something you can know in the early stages of developement, so normally ride height issues should be hard to find at the end of implementation.

Porpoising could be, realistically, something more logical. But this type of problem are more setup related, and aero/mecha resonances (wich I think they had or have, that's something the team really stated) can be solved with due time. I don't see FS as something directly related to these problems. It's about fine tuning, slight changes and better comprehension of the whole aero system (wich is different from RB and McLaren concepts, with light double deck?, pure pull rod configuration and huge airflow channels under acer area).

What I don't understand is how can we be so sure about facts and about the ignorance, habilities or mental problems of Ferrari employees. Sometimes it seems like the scuderia are a bunch of Mario an Luigi guys. For me, it's appalling.

[marcush.]

As I understand the aero force is something you feel through the "weight"of the car ,eg steering force rocketing..
you feel grip levels ,and adjust your driving to these..when feedback force starts to decresease thats the limit of adhesion.

[bhall]

Knowing that you're statement is well documented and causality relations are easily found from the internets, I really don't understand why the guy is there and why you are here. Intriguing.

You're new, so you've likely not read through all of my terrifically insightful musings on the F2012. (And, frankly, you're probably much better off because of it.)

[...] "since when did a suspension cause a lack of downforce?" [...]

When I see something like that attributed to a member of the team, it simply shatters any confidence I have in Ferrari's ability to solve its troubles this year. Regardless of whatever the car's problem(s) may be, I've got to believe that anyone associated with a racing team should know that it's absurd to put those words together into that sentence.

(As a Ferrari fan, I'm not at all happy with the success rate of my observations of the F2012 thus far. I want to be proven wrong. It's just not happening.)

[FakeAlonso]

Agreed 110%. Fernando just confirmed in the press conference they would not be bringing a new car to Barcelona.

From a McLaren fans point of view on what was said--> The Sky Sports bit from Brundle in the post-quali Sky coverage. He said that he had spoken to some Ferrari mechanics and insiders and they had pretty much confirmed that their problems still lie with fact that that their computer systems are not aligning with the on-track data and telemetry. This has meant that their issues lie squarely with the aero on the car. the suspension is just a red herring and isn't the cause or solution to their problems.

Well either Alonso is downplaying the fact that they are bringing a new car to Barcelona or with the current performance of the f2012 they should write off this year and focus for the next year. If they are not bringing a new car then what the heck are they doing??? They are going to improve a wrong car from the concept????? If Alonso is right then I really think they are lost and don't know what are they doing..

[Postmoe]

Knowing that you're statement is well documented and causality relations are easily found from the internets, I really don't understand why the guy is there and why you are here. Intriguing.

You're new, so you've likely not read through all of my terrifically insightful musings on the F2012. (And, frankly, you're probably much better off because of it.)

[...] "since when did a suspension cause a lack of downforce?" [...]

When I see something like that attributed to a member of the team, it simply shatters any confidence I have in Ferrari's ability to solve its troubles this year. Regardless of whatever the car's problem(s) may be, I've got to believe that anyone associated with a racing team should know that it's absurd to put those words together into that sentence.

(As a Ferrari fan, I'm not at all happy with the success rate of my observations of the F2012 thus far. I want to be proven wrong. It's just not happening.)

Yes, I'm new. And for that what I really want is cause-effect demonstration. One of the few good things about newbierism is ruthless efficiency in obvious things...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Science.

Nobody expects the newbie inquisition.

That's all. What if I start taking all this discussions about FS as facts and they are not? I just want to know.

Everyone can bet something and win. We can smell things coming, but if we make it without knowing the facts it could be very uninteresting in a technical forum, don't you think? That's all.

[radosav]

"It was better. I think we did a step forward in this race - there is no doubt," Alonso said. "The car was feeling a little bit better and again we did some checks Friday, some aero parts that we used in Australia and we wanted a confirmation.

"So we tested here again and some of them were quite positive. We introduced to the car and I think it's a step in the right direction. We were one second off pole position in Q2 when we went out in Australia in Q2 and today we were six tenths and a half.

"This three tenths is quite encouraging for us, a positive sign that we are moving in the right direction.

"We need obviously a triple step of what we did as soon as possible."

can someone explain to me what did he want to say???

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Knowing that you're statement is well documented and causality relations are easily found from the internets, I really don't understand why the guy is there and why you are here. Intriguing.

You're new, so you've likely not read through all of my terrifically insightful musings on the F2012. (And, frankly, you're probably much better off because of it.)

[...] "since when did a suspension cause a lack of downforce?" [...]

When I see something like that attributed to a member of the team, it simply shatters any confidence I have in Ferrari's ability to solve its troubles this year. Regardless of whatever the car's problem(s) may be, I've got to believe that anyone associated with a racing team should know that it's absurd to put those words together into that sentence.

(As a Ferrari fan, I'm not at all happy with the success rate of my observations of the F2012 thus far. I want to be proven wrong. It's just not happening.)

I don't believe I got the quote exactly right, but the sum of it was that the front suspension wasn't causing the lack of rear downforce. Nobody on the show(SkyF1) thought the quote was preposterous. They agreed. Will post the full quote when I wake up