Contolling Dive...

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
NickT
2
Joined: 24 Sep 2003, 12:47
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Post

Actually "The Race and Rally Car Source Book: The Guide to Building or Modifying a Competition Car" by Allan Staniforth covers this very well.
NickT

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Post

The "..To Win" series is EXCELLENT. Highly reccomend it. Much easier to read. Milliken's book is tough to really get in to, I imagine much more so if you're not completely fluent in English, especially a lot of the technical stuff.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

I second those comments:

IMHO - ".....To Win" by Carrol Smith is well written and very clear well illustrated, easy to understand.

Staniforth's books (yup more than one) are thorough and perhaps more "grass roots", but give some excellent examples of ways home builders/designers can improvise. Clearly written and well illustrated.

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Post

flynfrog wrote:aww lets all hug :wink:
Thanks, Dave, it does not seem indiferente at all to me. Thanx for the links.

C'mon, flynfrog, let's hug. Yes, aww, but you may be transformed into flynprince! :)
Ciro

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Post

This sort of explains how anti-dive geometry works.
http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/80727/

Sorry but I don't understand how anti-dive geometry
exactly works from this explanation.
Can somebody explain it more detailed how
the force is shifted from the pushrod to the swing arm.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

I'll try..........

Picture a side view of a car.

Imagine the front tyre contact with the road and a vertical line up through the centreline of the wheel.

Imagine the CofG of the car (height mainly - fore/aft lets call it the centre between the front/rear, but does not really matter)

Now imagine the front and rear pickup points of BOTH the upper & lower front wishbones. They can be any distance you like fore/aft of the wheel centreline - it does not affect the geometry.

If these points are parallel to each other & the ground - no anti-dive.

Two ways you can arrange anti-dive (parallel pickups or converging).

Converging - visualise a third point which is where a line between the front/rear pickups meet the vertical centreline of the wheel (this is actually the notional pivot point of the front wishbones). Draw a line from here back to to the CofG from the upper & lower points (the lines converge at the CofG). Then place the front/rear pickups each side of the wheel on this line. This is 100% anti-dive.

To get less anti-dive; now move the converging point vertically halfway between the ground and the CofG and re-draw your lines through the upper & lower wheel points and move your pickups onto this line - 50% antidive and so on.

Parallel arms - I THINK in this case you tilt the line of the arms together (keeping them parallel with each other), and project your line from the tyre contact patch to the desired distance from the CofG.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could use diverging wishbones projecting a point ahead of the car then back to the CofG - AFIK this hasn't been done.

I don't believe the pushrod has anything to do with it. When the brakes are applied the force is transmitted from the tyre through these arms to the chassis and the dricetion of the arms affects the way the forces react with the CofG.

BTW anti-squat uses the same trick in reverse ;)

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Post

Maybe a picture tells more than thousand words.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

mep wrote:Maybe a picture tells more than thousand words.
Image


Always happy to oblige.........

I am sure there are other ways to arrange the geometry, but you should get the idea...........

Looking at those pics. it occurs to me that there must be a jacking force involved too - lifting the car off the road.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Post

Thanks for the picture.

Now I know how it's arranged,
but I still don't know
how the braking force, which is attacking the tyre at
the road surface horizontally and which is therefore
taken by the rear wishbone
is shifted in a way that it can compensate the force from the wheight
of the car which is delivered vertically to the tire trough the pushrod.

There must be a special effect produced by the fact that
there is a front and rear wishbone, I think.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

Post

The pushrod feeds loads into the spring, letting the wheel move relative to the chassis. This has nothing to do with anti-dive ;) The only effect the spring has on dive is being able to resist movement. You may not alwaqys want a spring stiff enough to resist dive...........so you need to arrange your geometry to do this.

I may need help here - non technical explanation coming:

The wishbones pivot, but are rigidly attached to the chassis. Loads at the tyre are fed into the chassis via. these fixed points. The location of these points affect the direction the loads are fed into the chassis. Just like a roll centre (the point around which the chassis rolls) - the amount distance away from the CofG creates a lever. This lever rotates the chassis around the CofG. If the lever meets the CofG the chassis will not rotate in that direction. There is another force (I THINK it's called a resultant), this is a force upwards from the ground to the lever point. The resultant force creates a lifting force (called jacking).

Like most things there is a trade off. As already stated, anti-dive geometry makes the suspension less supple as loads are being fed in (exactly why - I'm not sure, but the previous explanations seem pretty good) and there is this lifting force which will try and remove load from the tyres (not good).

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Post

Mep, you're 90% there, and I hope this explanation fills in the gaps. If you examine RH1300S's diagram of 100% anti-dive, you will notice that the lower suspension locations have the front lower than the rear. Of course, this is part of an A-arm, with the third point located at the lower suspension upright. The braking force is backward, and if you can visualize the lower A-arm, pushing it backwards at the upright location would have a tenbdency to force the arm down, because the lower attachment point to the chassis is lower than the rear. I'm really over-simplifying this, but the more push backwards, with anti-dive it forces the arm down, resisting the tendency to dive.

User avatar
mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Post

I googled a bit and found this.

http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/Ef ... 0ALK_b.pdf


The motorbike links help a bit with the forces which is the thing I am
hanging on. How the suspension has to be aranged is clear thanks
to your explanations and the upper link.

http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible_bikes.html
http://www.dinamoto.it/DINAMOTO/on-line ... lever.html


I still wonder a bit how the horizontal force from braking is
changed into a vertical one to counter the weight shift.
Because the wisbones can swing freely in vertical direction.
The only thing which hinders them is the pushrod.

Maybe it's the other way around like on the front wheel of the motorbike.
You give the wheel a angel backwards so the bracking
force gives a force downwards.

Ayrton
Ayrton
0
Joined: 27 Jan 2005, 16:46
Location: PA+NJ, USA

Post

Mark Ortiz always explains the best I think

check it

http://www.auto-ware.com/ubbthreads/sho ... =0#Post602