Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

[myurr]

Well at the risk of stoking the WhiteBlue fire I'm going to disagree with him and the stewards.

Look at these two pictures from the moment of impact:




You can see that Vettel was moving over and cutting in front of NK just as NK was turning back to the racing line. In the second shot you can see how Vettel is angled differently to everyone else and how NK isn't even following the racing line yet. Sure NK had a bit of room to his left so should accept some blame, however Vettel shouldn't have been cutting in front of him like that when he wasn't clear.

The stewards probably punished him because of the blue flags, however from a purely racing point of view you can very easily argue that Vettel was unnecessarily aggressive and ultimately paid the price. Had that been a normal overtake rather than a blue flag moment then I don't think NK would have received a penalty.

Vettel's comments afterwards were also very immature. His form so far this year and character after this race make me feel vindicated in claiming that the car was flattering him last year. He's looked decidedly average alongside Webber this year, being 2 - 0 down in qualifying and in general looking ever so slightly slower in the races despite tending to have track position due to good fortune or strategy.

[King Six]

I find Ben Edwards to be just as annoying as Legard to be honest. Too much screaming and "OOOOOH" any time something remotely intriguing happens.

[Shrieker]

From another forum:

A lot of the responses shooting down the theory (and, that’s all it is at this time) very much remind me of the responses around the time of ‘Crashgate’ in Singapore…

Actually I'm a bit frustrated with myself after reading that post and remembering that Alonso had already benefitted to win a race from a race fixing scandal. Alonso and Ferrari, match made in heaven...

I try to tell myself "but he drove a perfect race" and it shouldn't detract from it, race fixing however does detract from the show in the end.

[WhiteBlue]

Well at the risk of stoking the WhiteBlue fire I'm going to disagree with him and the stewards.

That is in the best tradition of your carriage on this board. Whenever have you missed an opportunity to taint the young man with negative judgement in any disputed situation. But I trust the rest of the users to see it for what it is. Btw. the pictures you posted show nothing conclusive. The previously posted video is much clearer.

[Abarth]

The stewards and I do not agree with you on Vettel. Katikeyan needs talking to and I hope Herbert had a word with him. ......

I do not disagree with you in that Karthikeyan needs to be told again how to behave when lapped.
But it's still my opinion that Vettel should be more aware that he is not alone and that the other (especially when he thinks of him as being a ....) can do awkward moves. There was no need in that moment and place to go back on to the racing line before he saw Karthikeyan safely in the mirrors.
At the end of the day, it was his race which was ruined, and a penalty for Karthikeyan doesn't help him anything.

[WhiteBlue]

I heard that too - Some people (and myself included, I have to admit) thought they wanted the free gearbox change that would be allowed after a retirement; but Vettel did finally cross the line on his own power did he not?

In the German Sky interview Vettel said that he could hear the team asking him to box and later to DNF. He said it just did not feel right for him to do that.

[chepoi]

I heard that too - Some people (and myself included, I have to admit) thought they wanted the free gearbox change that would be allowed after a retirement; but Vettel did finally cross the line on his own power did he not?

In the German Sky interview Vettel said that he could hear the team asking him to box and later to DNF. He said it just did not feel right for him to do that.

if Vettel stop the car does it mean engine change for China?

[myurr]

Well at the risk of stoking the WhiteBlue fire I'm going to disagree with him and the stewards.

That is in the best tradition of your carriage on this board. Whenever have you missed an opportunity to taint the young man with negative judgement in any disputed situation. But I trust the rest of the users to see it for what it is. Btw. the pictures you posted show nothing conclusive. The previously posted video is much clearer.

Just like Vettel can do no wrong in your eyes even when there is clear evidence to the contrary. Are you saying then that in that second picture Vettel is not taking a different line to all the other cars?

The problem with the video is that you can only really focus on the relative movements of the two cars, not what they should be doing in relation to the race track and the line that every other driver is taken. Where it looks like Karthikeyan is turning to the right into Vettel, the freeze frame from that very moment shows that he is turning to follow the racing line and that Vettel is still angled to move further over the track - an unexpected line for the young german to take.

I agree that NK should have been a little more aware of his surroundings, but likewise Vettel should not have been running as close to him in the first place. He had no reason to and his comments afterwards, just as with Turkey 2010, were very arrogant.

And although I agree that NK really isn't F1 calibre, he had no part whatsoever in the Button incident.

[myurr]

I heard that too - Some people (and myself included, I have to admit) thought they wanted the free gearbox change that would be allowed after a retirement; but Vettel did finally cross the line on his own power did he not?

In the German Sky interview Vettel said that he could hear the team asking him to box and later to DNF. He said it just did not feel right for him to do that.

if Vettel stop the car does it mean engine change for China?

They can change the engine regardless as they have an allocation per year that they can use as they see fit (barring parc ferme between Saturday and the race).

It would have bought him a free gearbox change though. Currently the gearbox has to last eight races, however I'd like to see them use an allocation system similar to that used for engines.

[spacer]

I heard that too - Some people (and myself included, I have to admit) thought they wanted the free gearbox change that would be allowed after a retirement; but Vettel did finally cross the line on his own power did he not?

Might very well be PR BS again, but Horner has said the left rear puncture had damaged the brake duct. This caused the left rear brake to go into thermal runaway, hence the urge to stop the car.

[GrizzleBoy]

Well at the risk of stoking the WhiteBlue fire I'm going to disagree with him and the stewards.

Look at these two pictures from the moment of impact:




You can see that Vettel was moving over and cutting in front of NK just as NK was turning back to the racing line. In the second shot you can see how Vettel is angled differently to everyone else and how NK isn't even following the racing line yet. Sure NK had a bit of room to his left so should accept some blame, however Vettel shouldn't have been cutting in front of him like that when he wasn't clear.

The stewards probably punished him because of the blue flags, however from a purely racing point of view you can very easily argue that Vettel was unnecessarily aggressive and ultimately paid the price. Had that been a normal overtake rather than a blue flag moment then I don't think NK would have received a penalty.

Vettel's comments afterwards were also very immature. His form so far this year and character after this race make me feel vindicated in claiming that the car was flattering him last year. He's looked decidedly average alongside Webber this year, being 2 - 0 down in qualifying and in general looking ever so slightly slower in the races despite tending to have track position due to good fortune or strategy.

Tbh, I think we need to be fair and give both drivers some stick.

Did Vettel cut across Karthikeyans car and look to be trying to cut him off? Yes.

Did Karthikeyan attempt to retake the line too early? Yes.


However, I think Vettels aggressiveness during the overtake is what cost him.

He divebombed into the corner, lost his rear during the exit which probably slowed him a little, caused him to drift over into Karthikeyan as he regained control and caused Karthikeyan to misjudge when he thought Vettel would actually be past him so he could retake the racing line.

Who knows. Bad moves by both drivers but Vettel had acres of time and space to attempt a move that wouldn't have ended in such a way.

Either way, I agree that so far, this season is making Vettel look bad both in and out of the car.

The person the media made out to be an angel last year has had almost a constant frown since qualifying in Australia.

The person who couldn't make a mistake last year has been all over the place so far and been outqualified and out driven by his team mate as soon as they dont have a car with EBD.

[WhiteBlue]

The stewards and I do not agree with you on Vettel. Katikeyan needs talking to and I hope Herbert had a word with him. ......

I do not disagree with you in that Karthikeyan needs to be told again how to behave when lapped.
But it's still my opinion that Vettel should be more aware that he is not alone and that the other (especially when he thinks of him as being a ....) can do awkward moves. There was no need in that moment and place to go back on to the racing line before he saw Karthikeyan safely in the mirrors.
At the end of the day, it was his race which was ruined, and a penalty for Karthikeyan doesn't help him anything.

I have already agreed with Giblet that it is a valid opinion that drivers with more experience may have made double sure that they would keep clear from that guy. But even Button who is vastly more experienced fell into a similar trap and made the assumption that he would be given space. In the Button accident Katikeyan could have driven round at the edge of the track but he was probably 10 meters away from such a proper position when Button hit him. The same thing happened again with Vettel. Katikeyan wasn't outside at the edge of the track and he even pulled inside too early. For me that simply shows that the primary issue here is a lack of respect for the leaders. Back markers are in their own race but it is grossly unfair to compromise the leaders race to get an advantage over the other guys who observe the rules of being lapped. I did not observe that Pic or De la Rosa created any problems for the many drivers lapping them.

[GrizzleBoy]

The stewards and I do not agree with you on Vettel. Katikeyan needs talking to and I hope Herbert had a word with him. ......

I do not disagree with you in that Karthikeyan needs to be told again how to behave when lapped.
But it's still my opinion that Vettel should be more aware that he is not alone and that the other (especially when he thinks of him as being a ....) can do awkward moves. There was no need in that moment and place to go back on to the racing line before he saw Karthikeyan safely in the mirrors.
At the end of the day, it was his race which was ruined, and a penalty for Karthikeyan doesn't help him anything.

I have already agreed with Giblet that it is a valid opinion that drivers with more experience may have made double sure that they would keep clear from that guy. But even Button who is vastly more experienced fell into a similar trap and made the assumption that he would be given space. In the Button accident Katikeyan could have driven round at the edge of the track but he was probably 10 meters away from such a proper position when Button hit him. The same thing happened again with Vettel. Katikeyan wasn't outside at the edge of the track and he even pulled inside too early. For me that simply shows that the primary issue here is a lack of respect for the leaders. Back markers are in their own race but it is grossly unfair to compromise the leaders race to get an advantage over the other guys who observe the rules of being lapped. I did not observe that Pic or De la Rosa created any problems for the many drivers lapping them.

Button was racing for position and was not lapping Karthikeyan though, no?

He braked way too late, locked up and completely lost control of the car. You could even see him spinning up the rears to try and point the nose as far left as possible, but he couldn't make it.

Karthikeyan was not obliged to give up position. If that's not the case, then I think I'll stop typing for today.

[myurr]

The stewards and I do not agree with you on Vettel. Katikeyan needs talking to and I hope Herbert had a word with him. ......

I do not disagree with you in that Karthikeyan needs to be told again how to behave when lapped.
But it's still my opinion that Vettel should be more aware that he is not alone and that the other (especially when he thinks of him as being a ....) can do awkward moves. There was no need in that moment and place to go back on to the racing line before he saw Karthikeyan safely in the mirrors.
At the end of the day, it was his race which was ruined, and a penalty for Karthikeyan doesn't help him anything.

I have already agreed with Giblet that it is a valid opinion that drivers with more experience may have made double sure that they would keep clear from that guy. But even Button who is vastly more experienced fell into a similar trap and made the assumption that he would be given space. In the Button accident Katikeyan could have driven round at the edge of the track but he was probably 10 meters away from such a proper position when Button hit him. The same thing happened again with Vettel. Katikeyan wasn't outside at the edge of the track and he even pulled inside too early. For me that simply shows that the primary issue here is a lack of respect for the leaders. Back markers are in their own race but it is grossly unfair to compromise the leaders race to get an advantage over the other guys who observe the rules of being lapped. I did not observe that Pic or De la Rosa created any problems for the many drivers lapping them.

Button was racing for position and cocked up, pure and simple.

There was a time when the back markers didn't have to get out of the way of the leaders at all and making your way through the field was considered a skill that the top F1 drivers needed to have. Now there is a certain sense of entitlement when really all that separates most of the front running drivers from most of those at the back of the field is having a good car underneath them.

[raymondu999]

Currently the gearbox has to last eight races, however I'd like to see them use an allocation system similar to that used for engines.

Eight? Is it not five?

so far, this season is making Vettel look bad both in and out of the car.

This race, more like. Sure Vettel was frowning; but if you're used to competing with a good car and suddenly you're in a less-than-best car, you won't be happy. No one would be happy if for some reason they have their privileges reduced, F1 driver or not. He didn't look too bad on track in Melbourne either, and before the contact with Karthikeyan he was 2-3 tenths quicker than Lewis; so I don't think that was too bad.