Only 9 laps into the race, the Malaysian GP was stopped due to the rainy conditions, only to be restarted one hour later. It wasn't however any less interesting, with Alonso eventually winning the race after withstanding intense pressure from Sergio Pérez. Lewis Hamilton finished third after an unspectacular performance.
@Ray,
I've posted several times. It can't be taken as proof but still it's very suspicious. If they wanted a safe 2nd, why did they tell Sergio that Alonso's tyres were one lap older than his. He pushes like HELL and when he catches Alonso, an engineer tells him (with a downbeat tone) that they need to keep the position and shortly after Perez has an offtrack excursion. What happened in between those 2 transmissions ?
“Odd how with less than 10 laps left, Sauber tell Perez over the radio that Alonsos tyres are older than his (a bit of a come-on..?), Perez then closes within a second of Alonso, only to be told to hold ‘we need this position…’”
If you say to me that there is absolutely NOTHING suspicious in all this, then that's an insult to human intelligence, sorry.
@Giblet,
It's very possible and entirely plausible that Sauber and Ferrari had a deal worked out for situations like this from long ago.
Last edited by Shrieker on 26 Mar 2012, 22:47, edited 2 times in total.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
Shrieker wrote:
If you say to me that there is absolutely NOTHING suspicious in all this, then that's an insult to human intelligence, sorry.
No it isn't an insult. He burned up his fronts trying to catch Alonso, that's why they told him to be careful. He was catching him something like over half a second a lap. You're really trying to find something to hate about Alonso winning and Perez finishing second. I don't really get what your problem is. Why can't you be happy for Perez? Why must you continue to pollute this thread with false accusations and conspiracy theories. If you don't have proof, and you don't, then let it go.
False accusations and conspiracy theories eh... People were laughing too when some guys pointed out the oddity of Piquet Jr. crashing into the barriers and Alonso benefiting from the subsequent safety car to win. I hate no one by the way. That's your assumption. I said I'd have more than applauded Alonso for winning in that dog of a car if there was nothing fishy. Look it up.
What's worse is, crashgate wasn't the first time race fixing took place in F1. As things stand, it won't be the last either.
Giblet wrote:
That would be cheating, and McLaren was fined $100,000,000 USD, and Flavio booted from the sport.
With obvious evidence. Charlie and co. aren't idiots who will come out and point the finger without anything. The last thing the FIA or Bernie would want is to piss Ferrari off, especially with negotiations of the new concorde agreement taking place.
Last edited by Shrieker on 26 Mar 2012, 22:57, edited 3 times in total.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
So I don't get the beef. There was proof present in that case and a judgement laid. The only people who think there is anything to this non-story is forum lurkers. NO ONE in Formula 1 believes that tall tale to have any validity, only people who are on the outside looking in.
I'd still love to see the proof you have. Because you don't seem to have anything other than insinuations.
Let's just agree to disagree ok? I don't have solid evidence (surely you don't expect that from me do you ?), but seen enough to think there's something fishy going on. And remember that proof didn't see any daylight in crashgate for almost a year.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
Shrieker wrote: He pushes like HELL and when he catches Alonso, an engineer tells him (with a downbeat tone) that they need to keep the position and shortly after Perez has an offtrack excursion. What happened in between those 2 transmissions ?
He pushes like HELL, to catch 2xWDC and widely claimed one of the best current F1 drivers Alonso, in the final laps of a crazy race, where another 3 world champions have made costly mistakes, in his second full season in F1, being for the first time in his career and his Team's history on a podium position, and challenging for the win, burning out his front tires lap after lap, keeping in mind what happened to Maldonado last time around while he was chasing the same guy and crashed out of the race in the last freakin' lap throwing everything away, and shortly after his Team remind him on the radio to be cautious as they really need this 2nd place he has an off track excursion AND YOU STILL FIND THIS "FISHY"?????
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft
Hadn't seen this...Man what a jerk. I understand he was still in the heat of the moment but he is the one who cut back in front,,he could have waited a second more,,there was no reason to slam the door. He got what he asked for.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss
@andartop,
I've posted several times about the subject and repeated the same things over and over and over again. The answers for your questions are already present. I don't mean anything like "you don't deserve a reply, don't bother me/piss off" so please don't feel offended. I just don't want to clutter the forum further. I believe I've put forth my arguments along with their reasons.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk
Totally agreeing with Buxton. Perez is a races and he would have gone for the victory if it wasn't for the mistake. In the same time the team was thinking more logically considering all cost and benefits. So these conspiracies theories are just BS.
Wow... some people are so blindly biased. Being a fan is fun thing but being a hooligan is not. Inter team deals are in front of you guys. Redbull is boss when it comes to Toro Rosso relationship, yesterday we saw a similar deal exists between Ferrari and Sauber. So obvious, don't even want to discuss. Once again SHAME on you Sauber for not encouraging your driver to get a very possible win. It is wrong at so many levels. It had been one of those events which killed my love for the sport. Disgusting. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
You can say that about Red Bull and STR because they employ the same drivers and the money comes from the same place selling the same product.
Its not in the best interest of the STR drivers to screw up the drivers in the seats they want.
Its not the same thing with Sauber and Ferrari. It would be like Mercedes making McLaren yield for them. Never going to happen. but its Ferrari so Sauber MUST be cheating with them? No.
Or just because Sauber is not a top team, some assume they will sell their soul to Ferrari.
I have more respect for Peter Sauber than that. Honda showed class a few years ago... they never told Super Aguri to not pass them, and they did.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
Shrieker wrote:False accusations and conspiracy theories eh... People were laughing too when some guys pointed out the oddity of Piquet Jr. crashing into the barriers and Alonso benefiting from the subsequent safety car to win. I hate no one by the way. That's your assumption. I said I'd have more than applauded Alonso for winning in that dog of a car if there was nothing fishy. Look it up.
What's worse is, crashgate wasn't the first time race fixing took place in F1. As things stand, it won't be the last either.
Giblet wrote:
That would be cheating, and McLaren was fined $100,000,000 USD, and Flavio booted from the sport.
With obvious evidence. Charlie and co. aren't idiots who will come out and point the finger without anything. The last thing the FIA or Bernie would want is to piss Ferrari off, especially with negotiations of the new concorde agreement taking place.
If Perez made a totally different set of telemetry after perfect lap after lap, there would be questions about his throttle application, and why he went off.
Piquet was able to cheat, but he also practiced the spin in the warmup. It was planned, and the telemetry proved it. Same as Schumacher in Monaco. They looked at the telemetry, and said "You did that on purpose".
Perez would not go off track and risk something he has been dreaming of his whole life, he would 'miss a shift', or go into 'fuel saving mode'.
He is not going to divebomb off the track. No way.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute
I originally had a bunch of reasons why a conspiracy theory is ridiculous and doesnt make sense, which I got bored of and deleted.
What I kept that interested me was trying to understand the decision from the team wall. The armchair expected value doesnt really make sense:
Assume:
18 points was virtually guaranteed
25 points and a win was quite possible in a DRS car and hugely valuable,
but risking a no points finish
Also ignore outcomes P3-P10, since these are less-than-conservative goals, and Sauber's choice was ultimate-conservative. I'll address this later
Expected value comparison in units of points:
18*p(P2) > 25*p(P1)*c + 0*p(NOPOINTS),
where c is points multiplier of a win (greater than 1)
...
p(P1) would have to be at least 72% if you ignore any intangible "win bonus" value
p(P1) would only have to be 57.6% if you assume win bonus c = 1.25, 48% if c = 1.5, 36% if c = 2
So, even if you look at just the numbers, 72% is the base probability which changes your decision. If Sauber thought Perez could take the win more than 72% of the time, they should have radio'd to push. If Sauber thought that a win would add ANY value more the actual 25 points, then that probability drops FAST, and they even more should have pushed.
72% actually seems quite reasonable to me, given Perez's relative pace, primes, and every other pass made by others during the dry stage.
Obviously Sauber didnt think so, likely by gut check. So the combined experience of the Sauber wall thought that either:
- Perez had a LOWER chance of taking the win than 72% ,
- AND that a win bonus wouldnt make up for the low p(P1),
- AND/OR that p(P3-P10) made the numbers not worth it, especially given Williams doing well recently,
- AND/OR that a NO-POINTS finish was basically worth negative points.
- or that expected value is a worthless concept here, F1 is pure emotion or Sauber is a wizened survivor
So my question to you all is,
What do you think Perez's odds were (once his pace was evident)?
What is your estimate of the win bonus for Sauber, winless since BMW era?
That's all nice and dandy, but your calculations are based on the assumption that the underlying message was "don't go for the overtake". Which I don't think it was.
It sounded like a genuinely scared-because-it-was-treacherous-out-there "please don't pull a Maldonado while you're doing your stuff". "your stuff" being reeling in a big team/big driver by a second a lap, give or take 5 tenths. That, in combination with aforementioned treacherous conditions being a slightly scary prospect, because it might seem a bit unreal even to the Sauber team for their car to be that much faster even than a sub-par Ferrari.
I honestly don't see how that could be considered anything but common sense.
So anyway, in the harsh light of day, so far evidence from a sample of one would suggest his chances were 0% as I don't think he ever stopped trying
