Malaysian GP 2012 - Sepang International Circuit

[WhiteBlue]

.. the blue flag rules are there to ensure that the backmarkers cause minimum inconvenience to the front runners, but that doesn't mean that they should be willing or able to make their cars vanish entirely.

Another distortive remark that is not helpful to the debate in my view.

1. The blue flags are not there for convenience, they exist to protect those that are racing against illegitimate interference by drivers who are not racing them. The §20.5 also indicates implicitly that the race between back markers takes a lower priority to the duty of making room for the leaders.

2. The back markers are not required to make their cars vanish. They are simply burdened with the duty to let the leaders pass and if an accident happens it puts the added duty on them to do so without a mistake of their own.

[Abarth]

[...]Of course adding more than the necessary caution can help you save guarding against rookie mistakes but it will obviously not add to your race pace.[...]

You are right.
It depends just how "more than necessary" is defined.
Measured by the outcome of the race, to me it was definitely "less than necessary".

And that is what counts for the race result of SV.

No matter how much you'll punish NK, no matter how long your list of paragraphs is which he didn't respect, SV will not get his points back. In an accident he easily could avoid by acting just with a bit more respect toward this backmarker.

[gridwalker]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEJXj8s-PnU[/youtube]

I really don't see how NK could have done much more without slamming on the breaks or going off the circuit.

All Vettel needed to do was stay off-line for another second. Considering how variable the line had been all race, this surely wouldn't have been an insurmountable handicap in his pursuit of victory.

[Italiano]

This deserves to be quoted over and over again. Told him, didn't he.

“It’s completely unprofessional to blame me for the incident. The derogatory remark only goes to show him in bad light. I, however, have high regard for Vettel for whatever he has achieved in a short span of time.

“We have every right to race on track. The rule is that backmarkers have to give way when they are shown the blue flag, but it doesn’t mean we have to go out of the track. Just because he has a good car, he can’t call others an idiot.

"I have won races in all the previous single-seater championships I have participated in and held pole position in the most demanding F3 Macau Grand Prix, so I don’t need a certificate from Vettel.”

[WhiteBlue]

[...]Of course adding more than the necessary caution can help you save guarding against rookie mistakes but it will obviously not add to your race pace.[...]

You are right.
It depends just how "more than necessary" is defined.
Measured by the outcome of the race, to me it was definitely "less than necessary".

And that is what counts for the race result of SV.

No matter how much you'll punish NK, no matter how long your list of paragraphs is which he didn't respect, SV will not get his points back. In an accident he easily could avoid by acting just with a bit more respect toward this backmarker.

Naturally SV will not get back the points he lost by having the collision. It was not "less than necessary" IMO. The necessary caution is defined by the what enables a competent F1 driver to avoid a collision.

Pretty much everybody agrees that NK made a mistake. As long as SV did leave him enough room for the pass that is enough to constitute a violation of the sporting regulation.

For the umpteenth time: This has nothing to do with "respect for the back marker" or "bullying". There is a very simple rule how you deal with lapping and the rule was violated by NK. SV lost a bunch of points because he speculated that NK was a competent driver. He was wrong and suffered for it. NK drove like a rookie who does not belong in F1.

[Hail22]

Sad face during Malaysia?

Want a glass of warm milk Seb?

[WhiteBlue]

I really don't see how NK could have done much more without slamming on the breaks or going off the circuit.

All Vettel needed to do was stay off-line for another second. Considering how variable the line had been all race, this surely wouldn't have been an insurmountable handicap in his pursuit of victory.

The video shows once again the misleading commentary of the British commentators. It wasn't Vettel who moved once they were side by side. It was NK who left the outside of the track and moved inside on Vettel.

[GrizzleBoy]

I really don't see how NK could have done much more without slamming on the breaks or going off the circuit.

All Vettel needed to do was stay off-line for another second. Considering how variable the line had been all race, this surely wouldn't have been an insurmountable handicap in his pursuit of victory.

The video shows once again the misleading commentary of the British commentators. It wasn't Vettel who moved once they were side by side. It was NK who left the outside of the track and moved inside on Vettel.

At no point did Karthikeyan leave the track in the video. Why do you keep saying that?

He got real close to the curb, but he never left the track.

The only time he left the track was when he was letting Hamilton past just seconds before, an incident that had nothing to do with Vettel.

You're listening to Vettels words, when he said Karthikeyan was off the track (which was again, way before he actually got to overtaking him) and misunderstanding them, because at no point during Vettels overtaking move did Karthikeyan leave the track.

The very reason this whole debacle happened is because Karthikeyan didn't want to go off the track while Vettel was attempting to pass him.

[Giblet]

He left the dry racing line on slicks, which was obvious by the amount of spray he kicked up from the in car view of Vettel.

[myurr]

WhiteBlue your biggest problem is that you are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing and inventing rules.

The two rules you think NK breached are as follows:

20.5) As soon as a car is caught by another car which is about to lap it during the race the driver must allow the faster driver past at the first available opportunity. If the driver who has been caught does not allow the faster driver past, waved blue flags will be shown to indicate that he must allow the following driver to overtake.

16.1) Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any
action by any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the
stewards and subsequently investigated) which :

16.1.d) Caused a collision

From those rules you then go on to assert:

The whole sequence of events up to the point where NK and SV were side by side is is largely irrelevant to the incident because SV had the right to maximise his pace and optimise his racing line.

The rules do not say that. How on earth do you get from "must allow the faster driver to pass at the earliest possibility" to "has the right to maximise his pace and optimise his racing line"? The reason I keep asking you to quote rules is because you have quoted a couple of rules and then made all kinds of assertions about them like this one that simply are not true.

You can't just state things like this and have it accepted as fact if you repeat it over and over.

In my humble opinion the fact that Vettel had a speed differential and 15+ metres of track to play with was enough to ensure NK complied with 20.5. He let Vettel pass, he didn't try and block him. But that wasn't enough for SV. He took an unnecessary risk in going past NK more closely than he needed to and by not turning to follow the racing line but instead going straight and requiring NK to do the same.

Finally you state:

I have pointed out the reason why the three corner rule is not applicable - because the duty to let pass ASAP is unconditional with regard to a collision. The three corner rule only applies to denying a legitimate pass, (§16.1.g&f) which wasn't the case here.

So you believe that if NK had swept to the right earlier and blocked Vettel from overtaking for a further three corners that this would have been fine and acceptable according to the rules?

The underlined passage is also your interpretation of the rules and not written fact.

Is this why you believe NK is at fault for Button losing control of his car and sliding into him?

I don't think much of the world is going to agree with you on that one...

[Speedster]

Hello, I registered here after reading the discussion about the Perez incident. Let me first tell you I'm not really rooting for a single guy in Formula 1. I like Ferrari and Alonso, but also Renault, Hamilton, Williams etc. And since last Sunday Perez is added to the list.

Something that I feel is a bit overlooked here is the radio message we heard in lap 49. "Fernando is on options, one lap older than you". What does this tell? In my view, it is the sort of message you send when you want the position and you know it is possible, but not by taking unnecessary risks. "We want to have him, but be patient, he will run out of steam", that sort of thing. The message the lap after, "We need this position" is then just a confirmation. Don't do anything stupid, we have second, chances for first will come. In that one lap, did the mind of the Sauber team change? If we assume those messages are delayed by a lap or so, they still are only a lap apart. Did Ferrari call or visit them in the meantime? I cannot really believe this.

Also, the controversial radio message is played exactly 30 seconds after Perez used up more than half of his KERS on the finish straight leading to turn 1. In lap 49, I also noticed Perez was taking risks, he used a lot more track and kerb than Alonso.

In conclusion, for me there are enough indications to believe that the run-off of Perez was just a racing incident and the final team message was a message without a hidden message.

[mcdenife]

.........
SV lost a bunch of points because he speculated that NK was a competent driver. He was wrong and suffered for it. NK drove like a rookie who does not belong in F1.

Yes SV was wrong and suffered because he (SV) is not as competent a driver as he thought he was. We thought since becoming a double world champ (chump) SV was no longer a prat, had matured, was a better person (take your pick)....well how wrong we, including him, were as shown not just by the incident itself but moreso by the aftermath (ie actions and comments). We really shouldn't be surprised, as we've been here before haven't we WB? It seems Seb "the prat" Vettel from turkey/Front-Wing gate etc, is still the same Seb "The Prat" Vettel.

[Moanlower]

Sad face during Malaysia?

Want a glass of warm milk Seb?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSV-VtJfwRw[/youtube]

Seb was a bit pissed which is understandable but then unnecessarily cut Narain off because he expected him to go disappear, and as a result shot himself in the foot or rear tyre to be exact. =D>

It's been too easy for him the last couple of years running into the distance without having to fight with a superior car and it's got a bit into his head thinking he's some caesar or something.. Same like the other german he can only be superman in a supercar, otherwise just a great racer with flaws.

[marcush.]

Very bizarre the best drivers out there seem to be unawares about perimeter of a typical formula 1 car .Vettel,Hamilton,Button ,Rosberg ,Webber all seem to fall into this trap and even Schumi had his oops ,i lost my front wing moments..
But :Schu was the one guy who even took responsibility when you could debate the stiff defense and recklessness of the other guy.Never ever heard something along these lines from the heros mentioned above.
Vettel screwed up under pressure ,and not for the first time....all the confidence he built up over two and a half years is gone with the wind methinks and was owed mainly to a car and team fitting like a glove to his needs.
I doubt he is able to bounce back in China and we might have to wait a surprisingly long time till we see him on the top spot again.

[gridwalker]

I hope so ... I lost all respect for him after his Crazy Frog impression and I don't want to see how he will lower the bar after that