Ferrari F2012

[xpensive]

Ferrari will not change the pull rod front suspension.
...
No new chassis either the team says. I also asked about correlation problems and the team said there are none. Correlation between wind tunnel, CFD & the track are fine.

"Read my lips, no new taxes!"

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I also asked about correlation problems and the team said there are none. Correlation between wind tunnel, CFD & the track are fine.

What then is the excuse for the exhaust failure? A brief palsy of some sort for its designer?

It wasn't brought up. I didn't ask. I asked two, about correlation & new exhaust.

Here is a txt doc of all the questions & answers from today regarding the F2012

http://www.sendspace.com/file/7ptco6

[hardingfv32]

What then is the excuse for the exhaust failure? A brief palsy of some sort for its designer?

How are you able to isolate the performance problem to the exhaust layout? The exhaust layouts of the entire field are varied with no one cars performance standing out relative to last year performances.

Brian

[bhall]

How are you able to isolate the performance problem to the exhaust layout? The exhaust layouts of the entire field are varied with no one cars performance standing out relative to last year performances.

Have you read any press coverage of the F2012?

[marcush.]

I think that diagram nicely sums up the problems. Put yourself in the position of that pull-rod and look at how little movement, especially vertical movement, there is inboard here.

The amount of vertical motion of the pull-rod is completely irrelevant. Look at the damn diagram I drew up earlier:



There seems to be some misconception that the push or pull-rod has to support all the vertical load of the car directly. It doesn't!!! Forget all the names of all the elements in the front view. It's completely irrelevant. All that matters is that you have links there in some orientation that can support vertical and lateral loads. That requirement is met. In this case, vertical load is taken up initially through the A-arms... and even with a completely horizontal pull or push rod can control the vertical position of the chassis by its horizontal displacement.

A linkage is a linkage. Who cares what orientation it's in.

alinkage may be a linkage but from that sketch you can easily derive that a fairly big (exagerrated)vertical movement of the hub is resulting in almost nil movement at the pullrod end and you need to acknowledge that this is not a good thing -AS you need to have a very short lever on the rocker and translate this into damper movement /torsionbar twist .Any slag ,give ,and flex will be a huge factor in this arrangement and you will surely have a hard time sorting this out.
That said I think most Formula 1 suspension is suffering in that area...

[hardingfv32]

Have you read any press coverage of the F2012?

You are joking aren't you????

"Don't just take stuff at face value, folks. Think critically!" Jersey Tom

Brian

[timbo]

OK, so let's see what we are comparing.
I took the picture posted before and added a push-rod link.

The lengths of the push-rod (the delta is pretty much the movements at the rocker) is 454 vs 437 compressed, and the pull-rod 353 vs 369 compressed. So almost the same movement for both.

[bhall]

Have you read any press coverage of the F2012?

You are joking aren't you????

"Don't just take stuff at face value, folks. Think critically!" Jersey Tom

Brian

What does someone else's statement have to do with my own?

Do all F1 news sources provide equal-quality coverage?

What are the chances that this has been discussed at length somewhere within the 175 pages of this thread?

Does the following ring a bell?

"I think we can claw back, at best, at least 25% of the downforce we had last year, even if we need to see what that costs us in fuel consumption and corner turn-in stability. "

That fuel consumption part is interesting. Doesn't it mean that they are still able to use some hot-blowing ? How otherwise could downforce be realated to fuel consumption

1) You can not claw back 25% of the downforce with a exhaust flow that is only 10% as effective as last year.

2) I would interpret poor turn-in stability to mean they do not have an effective exhaust blowing system.

Brian

How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Ben

[hardingfv32]

Any slag ,give ,and flex will be a huge factor in this arrangement and you will surely have a hard time sorting this out.
That said I think most Formula 1 suspension is suffering in that area... :roll:

I do not think this is actually the case... although I am sympathetic to your gut feeling.

I have a front F1 titanium rocker in my collection that uses 6-mm ball bearings (FAFNIR MKP4A) in double shear the mount the pushrod end and shock end. A bearing this small would not seem like the correct choice if you are worried about 'any slag ,give ,and flex'.

The lever arm from the 9-mm torsion bar, located in the pivot zone on the rocker, to the pushrod or shock mounting point is 59-mm. This shock does not see a lot of movement AND it is has a piston of about 34-38 mm. The shock is not moving a lot of volume.

Brian

[timbo]

alinkage may be a linkage but from that sketch you can easily derive that a fairly big (exagerrated)vertical movement of the hub is resulting in almost nil movement at the pullrod end and you need to acknowledge that this is not a good thing

Look at the picture in my previous post. The movement at the end of the rod is almost the same pull- vs push-.

[fritticaldi]

http://www.auto.it/autosprint/formula_1 ... l+pull+rod

[bhall]

That article simply will not stop finding its way to this thread.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

That article simply will not stop finding its way to this thread.

Indeed. And the thing is, I posted the AutoSprint magazine article which goes further in depth. But they're just trying to help. however it helps to read through the thread.

@timbo nice picture. Thanks for that. It shows what many of us have been saying for a while.

[fritticaldi]

By the way, to my great surprise the AS readers have voted Barrichello as a suitable replacement for Massa by a large percentage. Go figure!

[Chuckjr]

Ferrari will not change the pull rod front suspension. Right now Ferrari is doing Q&A on twitter with #askFerrari The question was asked an answered!




I suggest looking at their page for answers to the many questions we have about the F2012---> https://twitter.com/#!/InsideFerrari

No new chassis either the team says. I also asked about correlation problems and the team said there are none. Correlation between wind tunnel, CFD & the track are fine.

Let me say first how grateful I am to the contributors of this forum. It has made my F1 experience even more rich and I just cannot tell you how grateful I am for the time you guys put into these discussions. Thank you. 

I've seen reported here repeatedly that Ferrari knew after Jerez testing in February that they concluded the original exhaust was the most effective solution, but that further study was nesassary to make it work. So they immediately started chopping up the side pod exits (as we all observed), moved the exhaust all around during testing, and worked with an altogether different but terribly inferior solution for the exhaust. 

But, as you have just reported in the quote above, Ferrari states emphatically that there is no correlation problem between the wind tunnel, CFD, and the track. 

ok. 

My first question is, if there is indeed no correlation issue, and they had from July 2011 till February 2012  to design the car,  why did their original solution fail so badly that they abandoned it completely after 6 months of study and just a single day on the track even though they knew it was the superior solution? Does this, in the opinion of those here who really know what they are talking about, emulate that there is indeed no correlation problem, or does it say otherwise? That's not a set up question for saying it does point to a discrepancy, it's a real and open question. I want to understand based on your experience and facts. 

Second, and this is an even more speculative question, (that seems to be a synonym for this site and that's not intended to be derogatory since we are all just trying to combine minds to understand) if Ferrari is indeed able to make their original idea work, which failed so bad day 1 they abandoned it completely, why would it be a better solution than the proven McLaren or Sauber exhaust since we know those solutions work--esp the Macca solution? Ferrari could easily copy either of those and in doing so is nearly guaranteed a vast improvement, so is there truth to the theory that it is indeed a better solution from this decision to stay with day 1 Jerez exhaust? We all saw last year Macca just copied and pasted the RB blown diffuser solution, so pride of original design seems to give way to having a competitive car...maybe Ferrari has more pride, but that can't be answered conclusively here.