Ferrari F2012

[bhall]

why in the hell is Ferrari taking so long to copy Sauber exhaust solution,and how did Redbull menage to do it by preseason test3

First, we're only two races into the season. Second, Red Bull didn't copy a thing. Third, there's no guarantee that Sauber's exhaust solution will work on the F2012. And last, but certainly not least, bolting on a new exhaust isn't as simple as bolting on a new exhaust. Certain accommodations must be made for it to be effective.

You mustn't forget that everything on an F1 car is designed to complement something else on the car. Were that not the case, the F2012 wouldn't be suffering from the litany of problems related to its original exhaust, e.g., sidepod lift, low-speed traction and a reduced top-speed.

[Chuckjr]

Fantastic report HIEQS. That's the best explanation I've heard yet and makes great sense. What a shame we never saw the car in its designed fundamental. I hope they can correct it as coming out with a Macca retred will make me want to vomit.

Have any of the Ferrari team info freakazoids in this forum heard a similar consideration? I'm curious if there's any merit to this idea.

[bhall]

I don't buy it. I floated that possibility here last month. It was around the time when that unnamed Ferrari team member was quoted as saying something to the effect of, "Since when does the suspension effect downforce?"

At any rate, not only would Ferrari admit to such a problem, they'd take out ads in newspapers, hire skywriters and instruct their drivers and engineers to shout such an admission from the peaks of the highest mountains. It's the perfect scapegoat for the F2012's woes.

And I also don't see how lowering the car would help cure the problem of ineffective brake duct blowing or even mask its symptoms. That speaks to diffuser issues.

Of course, maybe the diminished rake has something to do with sidepod lift. Who knows.

[Lycoming]

His theory has merit in that it explains the pitch sensitivity. However, bhallg2k has a point; they would have made a big fuss out of it. Also:

Why would blowing on the wings on the brakes result in increased sensitivity? The downforce generated there is unsprung, and has nothnig to do with pitch sensitivity, unless you mean the chassis was moving around so much that the duct is not able to blow consistently on it?

Also, why would the problem get worse as it gets lighter? When weight drops, the amount of load transfer drops, and the effects from the loss of the reactive system would by even less than on high fuel.

And finally, in response to the comment:

"Since when does the suspension effect downforce?"

Quite a lot actually! The whole point of active suspension was to keep the car balanced and maintain ideal pitch and roll so the aerodynamics would always be at the optimum. Suspension is very important in terms of keeping the aerodynamics in the proper orientation, part of the reason why F1 cars are sprung so stiffly.

However, its worth noting that the only reason suspension has any effect on aero is that they are not allowed to mount their wings and floors unsprung (ie. attached directly to the uprights). If they were allowed to do that, the only aero effect from suspension would be drag from the arms and rods.

[bhall]

Why would blowing on the wings on the brakes result in increased sensitivity? The downforce generated there is unsprung, and has nothnig to do with pitch sensitivity, unless you mean the chassis was moving around so much that the duct is not able to blow consistently on it?

I think that's what's implied. But, how would lowering the suspension help? It seems to me that such a move would make the problem worse by exposing that much more of the brake duct and its winglets to the unstable effects of the exhaust, not to mention the jarring effect of the stiffer spring rate on the exhaust plume.

And finally, in response to the comment:

"Since when does the suspension effect downforce?"

I think my exact response to that was: "I really hope someone from Ferrari didn't say that."

[Crucial_Xtreme]

"Since when does the suspension effect downforce?"

Quite a lot actually! The whole point of active suspension was to keep the car balanced and maintain ideal pitch and roll so the aerodynamics would always be at the optimum. Suspension is very important in terms of keeping the aerodynamics in the proper orientation, part of the reason why F1 cars are sprung so stiffly.

However, its worth noting that the only reason suspension has any effect on aero is that they are not allowed to mount their wings and floors unsprung (ie. attached directly to the uprights). If they were allowed to do that, the only aero effect from suspension would be drag from the arms and rods.

Keeping it oriented yes, not causing a complete lack of downforce. Again, I obviously got the quote wrong because Brundle and others totally agreed with the Ferrari Tech's assertion. The whole point of their conversation was that the pull rod front suspension wasn't causing the lack of downforce & wasn't the cars problem.

[hardingfv32]

But make no mistake, they will solve it

Just like last year.

Brian

[alogoc]

why in the hell is Ferrari taking so long to copy Sauber exhaust solution,and how did Redbull menage to do it by preseason test3

First, we're only two races into the season. Second, Red Bull didn't copy a thing. Third, there's no guarantee that Sauber's exhaust solution will work on the F2012. And last, but certainly not least, bolting on a new exhaust isn't as simple as bolting on a new exhaust. Certain accommodations must be made for it to be effective.

You mustn't forget that everything on an F1 car is designed to complement something else on the car. Were that not the case, the F2012 wouldn't be suffering from the litany of problems related to its original exhaust, e.g., sidepod lift, low-speed traction and a reduced top-speed.

i disagree! RB did copy Sauber!

[raymondu999]

There's no proof either way, so your word is as good as bhall's in this case

[bhall]

It may appear that way, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that Red Bull's exhaust solution was in the pipe - get it? - before testing began.

(You've insipred me, mx.)

[beelsebob]

It may appear that way, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that Red Bull's exhaust solution was in the pipe - get it? - before testing began.

(You've insipred me, mx.)

I don't remember who it was who said it, but at the first race, they said "we started working on it about 4 weeks ago" which coincided with about 2 days after McLaren's car was launched.

[alogoc]

Are Redbull facilities more advaced than Ferrari's?

[tok-tokkie]

That whole thing about reactive suspension on the Ferrari is speculation. Not one bit of evidence to show that they had such a system in progress. Lots of circumstantial evidence that they did not have such a system in progress.

[alogoc]

Today is q&a whit inside Ferrari so we can ask about reactive ride rumor!

[amouzouris]

Interview with Scarbs:
Despite Alonso’s win in Malaysia the spotlight is very much still on Ferrari after their radical development on the F2012 has yet to show they can seriously challenge for the title. BBC’s Technical Reporter Gary Anderson spoke during winter testing of how the Ferrari seems very inconsistent, looking blisteringly quick one minute and then handling terribly the next, what do you believe to be the reason behind this?

Ferraris problems are complex, I believe there is a fundamental aero imbalance, and this overrides other issues that people have highlighted, especially regards the pullrod front suspension and the exhaust configuration. The cars downforce shifts unpredictably when braking and accelerating, this requires the team to stiffen the suspension which wreck low speed performance. his partly explains the teams inconsistent performance, the car is inherently quick, but lack the balance in all conditions. The team will need to look at the front wing and diffuser; perhaps the change in exhaust position forced by tyre heating issues has lead to a lack of sealing of the diffuser.

Its clear Ferrari have more upgrades coming for china and the bigger upgrade package for Spain. However the latter is not expected to be a new chassis with pushrod front suspension. Indeed the front suspension problems are a red herring masking the aero problems with the car.

If the team can minimise point’s losses to their rivals in the next two races, then the championship is still a possibility. If they are still struggling after the first two European races, then I fear the year is lost for the team.

Exclusive interview with Scarbs: http://thewriteformula.net/2012/04/04/e ... scarbs-f1/

This is what he said about the F2012