Ferrari F2012

[amouzouris]

Agreed 110%. Honestly Ferrari & McLaren weren't that far off from each other. Which is a way I think somewhat shows Ferrari has potential and is thinking the right way. They just got it wrong. No excuse, I'm not saying that. But they're solutions were fairly similar.

while the exhaust situation certainly is'nt helping ferrari, i dont see them becoming a force even with it rectified, seems like flawed car.

and u base that on what?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

while the exhaust situation certainly is'nt helping ferrari, i dont see them becoming a force even with it rectified, seems like flawed car.

you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but your basis for forming said opinion is flawed. The F2012's problem are related to the exhaust & aerodynamics. Even with said flaws the F2012 race pace has been better than many other teams. It's equal to Lotus, whom you seem to think is very fast and just behind the leaders. If you look at the numbers from Australia, the F2012(Alonso) is right there with Lotus, better than Mercedes. And obviously in Malaysia it was better than all but one team.
So that says to me if they can get their problems with the car sorted, more likely than not the car will be competitive. But only time will tell.

[sknguy]

Alonso was never highly critical about the car, or its balance. His only big compaint seems to be its lack of speed. But, Alonso has always been very good at tire mangement. And he seems to be better able to cope with the car's seeming tire wear issue than Massa. Curiously, the performance does seem to fade when on lighter fuel loads, which might axacerbate its lack of downforce.

This is curious to me because, how does one correlate a lack of speed with a lack of downforce? Unless as some have suggested, that there is something creating positive lift and slowing the car too. I would've thought that with the lower rake the car is running it would have better straight line speed than it does?

I'd also thought the car had some fundamental flaw in the design. But contrary to the "chassis is flawed" idea, Alonso isn't so down in the dumps about the performance of the car. Maybe it isn't a fundamental design flaw and there may only be one aspect of the whole package that's flawed.

I do agree that the exhaust aspect of this experiment has to change direction though. There's just something wrong with the "whale tail" design that must be negatively effecting the diffuser performance.

[bhall]

His only big [complaint] seems to be its lack of speed.

"Sorry, officer. But it's only a few kilos!"

The F2012 is just a series of compromises at the moment. Ineffective exhaust = lower rake = stiffer suspension = poor traction/pitch sensitivity = low top-speed/tire wear issues/unpredictable handling. In theory, you fix the first, the rest fall into line. But, that assumes the exhaust mistake was made in isolation.

The gods have smiled down upon the Scuderia with the wet race in Malaysia and the apparent coming of an early-season lull in race activity. Maybe they can get their house in order. I'm still not holding my breath.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. Sidepod lift. Throw that in anywhere.

[alogoc]

His only big [complaint] seems to be its lack of speed.

"Sorry, officer. But it's only a few kilos!"

The F2012 is just a series of compromises at the moment. Ineffective exhaust = lower rake = stiffer suspension = poor traction/pitch sensitivity = low top-speed/tire wear issues/unpredictable handling. In theory, you fix the first, the rest fall into line. But, that assumes the exhaust mistake was made in isolation.

The gods have smiled down upon the Scuderia with the wet race in Malaysia and the apparent coming of an early-season lull in race activity. Maybe they can get their house in order. I'm still not holding my breath.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. Sidepod lift. Throw that in anywhere.

what of this changes would you expect in China,Ferrari comfirmed no exhaust,so maybe front,rear wings?

[bhall]

I don't see anything to indicate that the current wings are an issue. The front wing is not a source of undue drag, no matter how much they "crank it up." (I don't know where that one got started. For all intents and purposes, front wing drag is never an issue.)

I really don't know what to expect. This has been the strangest beginning to an F1 season that I can remember in a long, long time.

If I was Stefano Domenicali, I'd tender my resignation, but strongly suggest that the team take a Spa/Monza-spec rear wing and just have at those long straights. What's the worst that could happen?

[alogoc]

I don't see anything to indicate that the current wings are an issue. The front wing is not a source of undue drag, no matter how much they "crank it up." (I don't know where that one got started. For all intents and purposes, front wing drag is never an issue.)

I really don't know what to expect. This has been the strangest beginning to an F1 season that I can remember in a long, long time.

If I was Stefano Domenicali, I'd tender my resignation, but strongly suggest that the team take a Spa/Monza-spec rear wing and just have at those long straights. What's the worst that could happen?

Scarbs.said.front.wing is something Ferrari should look into, also someone said that FW endplates not working as they should in F2012!

[bhall]

You're right. I forgot about that. There's a theory that the front wing end plates are producing an errant vortex that's contributing to the car's instability. So, of course, if that's the case, I expect the team to attempt to fix it ASAP. However, that could be yet another side-effect of the car being run at a lower-than-intended rake. The resultant change in the front wing's AoA could be the source of the errant vortex.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I don't see anything to indicate that the current wings are an issue. The front wing is not a source of undue drag, no matter how much they "crank it up." (I don't know where that one got started. For all intents and purposes, front wing drag is never an issue.)

I really don't know what to expect. This has been the strangest beginning to an F1 season that I can remember in a long, long time.

If I was Stefano Domenicali, I'd tender my resignation, but strongly suggest that the team take a Spa/Monza-spec rear wing and just have at those long straights. What's the worst that could happen?

The amount of lift and/or negative lift(DF) generated by the FW is directly related to the AoA and drag is directly related to top speed. I'm not saying that Ferrari's top speed problem is all due to the FW, but it's(FW AoA) certainly not helping.
I also think maybe they didn't anticipate using such high AoA and it's altering the airflow in ways not forseen??

Anyway I'm not saying that's all of their problem, but I think it's a factor. Then there's the end plates mentioned by both Scarbs & Gary Anderson(take with grain of salt) but I think that's due in part to the new Pirelli's. What's kind of weird is that the FW ran in Malaysia wasn't used since Barcelona. Suddenly it was good enough for the car with no other real visible updates to anything other than the RW.

I think a new FW is possible, especially if the rumors about the FWEP's is true. There's only so much they can change without introducing a major revision so I don't see the car being hugely different than in Sepang.

[bhall]

Yes, that is true, but front wing drag as a percentage of overall drag is minimal in all cases. It ranks somewhere after the tires, rear wing and chassis, which is to say, it doesn't really matter.

EDIT:

What's kind of weird is that the FW ran in Malaysia wasn't used since Barcelona. Suddenly it was good enough for the car with no other real visible updates to anything other than the RW.

The biggest change was a Red Bulling of the flap, but I think the most important change was to the end plates, where they made very rudimentary adjustments to whatever the hell those McLaren notches are called. Those changes were probably in relation to the errant vortex.

[alogoc]

You're right. I forgot about that. There's a theory that the



front wing end plates are producing an errant vortex that's contributing to the car's instability. So, of course, if that's the case, I expect the team to attempt to fix it ASAP. However, that could be yet another side-effect of the car being run at a lower-than-intended rake. The resultant change in the front wing's AoA could be the source of the errant vortex.

I always wonder how come they expect the same FW that they had on last year car to work on this year's one when everything that is behind those wings is totaly different!?

[bhall]

I think the biggest thing that caught them out was likely the microscopic change in the Pirellis profile. (I forgot about that one, too. I'm not on my game today. Sorry.)

But, otherwise, the car's inherently the same as far as what's following behind the wake produced by the front wing, yanno?

[alogoc]

I think the biggest thing that caught them out was likely the microscopic change in the Pirellis profile. (I forgot about that one, too. I'm not on my game today. Sorry.)

But, otherwise, the car's inherently the same as far as what's following behind the wake produced by the front wing, yanno?

for example F2012 sidepods are different than F150 isn't FW determenting the flow around them?

[myurr]

You're right. I forgot about that. There's a theory that the



front wing end plates are producing an errant vortex that's contributing to the car's instability. So, of course, if that's the case, I expect the team to attempt to fix it ASAP. However, that could be yet another side-effect of the car being run at a lower-than-intended rake. The resultant change in the front wing's AoA could be the source of the errant vortex.

I always wonder how come they expect the same FW that they had on last year car to work on this year's one when everything that is behind those wings is totaly different!?

Jeez, perhaps because everything is designed to work together!?

The circular discussions on here are getting more and more far fetched. Ferrari haven't just forgotten to update their front wing or accidentally stuck last years wing on the car. They're not just hoping it all works or guessing at the aerodynamics using their eyeballs like everyone on this board.

Many of the same people kindly informing us about all the visible problems Ferrari have were the ones declaring the season over for the other teams when they saw the B spec Red Bull, forum members and journalists alike. The same eyeball CFD, having thought the new Red Bull was going to dominate, is now picking out all kinds of definitive flaws.

Truth is that these are incredibly complex machines, especially aerodynamically, with many many subtle interactions that the teams spend tens and tens of millions of pounds each year studying and refining. There are no glaring errors with any of the cars that any fool could spot. We're talking about subtle interactions failing to play out with 100% accuracy, and dynamics causing maybe a one to two percent difference in lap time. Sure there are differing theories and compromises used by each of the teams, but the end result is relatively subtle and not a night and day difference.

Ferrari, or any other team, cannot simply rush through a change in philosophy. They need to craft and polish the whole solution otherwise an upgrade that may theoretically bring a 2% improvement in lap time may be unrefined enough to actually give a 1% decrease in performance. The margins on these cars really are that tight.

[bhall]

The other end to that is that the front wing isn't exactly making a surgical incision in the air as it passes through it; it's much, much dirtier, and, like I said, the basic shape of the chassis following through that hole this year is much the same as the basic shape of the one that followed through it last year.

myurr, I respect the reverential way in which you treat the matter. I really do. But, once you realize that these are human beings that make these design decisions, it becomes a lot easier to see the ways in which there might be errors. Beyond that, what else are we going to talk about here? The weather? (It's hot here, and I've been told I'm going to positively loathe the Texas summer.)

EDIT: And for what it's worth, I still think this car is screeewwwed.