Scuderia Ferrari 2012

[Crucial_Xtreme]

This is one way of looking at it. However, you should give some more thought to the knock on effects of having a car that doesn't do what it should do unlike 'well born cars'. Ferrari will have had several months of planned upgrades that they would've been preparing for the F2012 long before the first test in Jerez. The problem they have is it's possible that a lot of these plans may've had to be been scrapped as the car's behaviour was quite different to what they thought. They're having to develop from a platform that they struggled to understand. Cars that have done as expected will be able to refine/bring forwards developments that have been in the pipeline for months and so have more potential to deliver results. The China package for Mclaren would've been well developed since before the race in Melbourne but I'm not sure the same could be said of Ferrari who were still fire fighting back then.

I think you're way off here on this comment. I think it's much easier for Ferrari to find a huge chunk of lap time versus McLaren for instance. McLaren is much closer to the upper potential of their car(per se) than Ferrari who is 0.8s or more off the top car.

As far as Ferrari, they know what their problems are, and have been working towards fixing them since the 2nd Barcelona test. It's plenty of time. Fernando has already said they don't expect any huge gains in China, you can't turn around a car that quickly. What matters for Ferrari is that the updates for Spain work and work well.

[myurr]

We have been talking about the Ferrari updates for some time now and I have made my point before that they look a bit slow in the development. In China all Mclaren Red Bull and Lotus will bring big updates. Red Bull is going to bring even two different specs and will test on Friday. Why only Ferrari very small updates and why wait for Mugello and Spain? I cant believe Red Bull is bringing two different specs and Ferrari is still wondering around poorly design concept and cant even bring another spec (if they are going to bring another spec) by Spain.

This will be a combination of several things:

1) They don't, or at least didn't, know what was wrong with the car and why the real world numbers weren't matching up with their simulations.

2) Updates they were bringing to the car weren't working or were making it worse.

3) Their entire upgrade pipeline would have been scrapped and then stalled whilst the first issue is worked out.

4) Until they're sure that the numbers are going to match and the upgrades are going to work they cannot restart that upgrade process. Otherwise they'll just be stabbing around in the dark where even if they get lucky and an upgrade brings a load of performance, they still won't understand why.

5) Updates have a lead time. From the idea they need to build models, both CFD and wind tunnel. They need to test and refine those ideas, possibly updating multiple parts of the car to make sure it continues to work in unison. Once that long process is complete the final race parts need to be manufactured which is a long process in itself. The parts then need to be shipped to wherever the race team is, fitted to the car, tested, approved and then raced or data sent back to HQ for further refinement, etc.

Ferrari have a great track record but my personal feeling is that when they get on top of their aero and correlation issues they'll take a step forward but won't catch the very front of the field. And that by then they'll be too far behind in terms of planned updates to be able to fight for race wins except in exceptional circumstances.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

We have been talking about the Ferrari updates for some time now and I have made my point before that they look a bit slow in the development. In China all Mclaren Red Bull and Lotus will bring big updates. Red Bull is going to bring even two different specs and will test on Friday. Why only Ferrari very small updates and why wait for Mugello and Spain? I cant believe Red Bull is bringing two different specs and Ferrari is still wondering around poorly design concept and cant even bring another spec (if they are going to bring another spec) by Spain.

I don't think it's too hard to see that the teams you mention are bringing big updates to China are the 3 best/fastest teams on the grid. They're not 0.8s behind anyone. Yes RB is bringing two spec RB8's to China, but their worst spec car is much better than the very best F2012 spec.

Also you can't be sure these udates for the F2012 are minor. That could be a little bit of tactics. But as Fernando said, you can't turn around a bad car that quick. The team rushed some parts that were meant for Spain to China. So these updates should, and I repeat should give the team some indication if they're headed in the right direction. No team will bring such a huge update that Ferrari needs to a GP to test on Friday only. They really need to Mugello test to see what the new updates provide to the status of the car, not 2 free practice sessions which are simply not enough time.
I understand the frustration, but considering they rushed these parts to be ready for China, let's see if they help. Spain is the big step or not for the F2012, we've known that since pre-season testing.

[Chuckjr]

This is one way of looking at it. However, you should give some more thought to the knock on effects of having a car that doesn't do what it should do unlike 'well born cars'. Ferrari will have had several months of planned upgrades that they would've been preparing for the F2012 long before the first test in Jerez. The problem they have is it's possible that a lot of these plans may've had to be been scrapped as the car's behaviour was quite different to what they thought. They're having to develop from a platform that they struggled to understand. Cars that have done as expected will be able to refine/bring forwards developments that have been in the pipeline for months and so have more potential to deliver results. The China package for Mclaren would've been well developed since before the race in Melbourne but I'm not sure the same could be said of Ferrari who were still fire fighting back then.

I think the obvious consideration then in regards to your comment here is Macca last year. They had a dog and in just the first few races were able to find all kinds of time using a diffusor system nothing like they had in testing. If your theory is accurate, then how did they manage to find all the time they did as they would have had to abandon all planned upgrades they had set for their car before testing.

Based on these actual facts of events from last year, I think it's only fair to consider that teams actually can change course after the season starts and find a lot of time for a dog of a car. But, they key to this turn around is understanding the car and making changes that will work each and every weekend. Ferrari will now have to prove they understand the car enough to make every upgrade work if they want to stay in it this year. I think China and Spain will be the big answer to that. If they don't find a wad of time by the starting grid in Spain then, I believe, then it's really trouble.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Let me preface the post and link below by saying I'm not surprised by this, and I don't mean it in a pissed off sort of way. many people say oh they've had almost two years, etc etc but I don't agree. It takes time to completely change the way a company works. Especially in such a complicated sport as Formula One.

Fry blames Ferrari methods
Technical chief hints that fundamental problems remain

Ferrari technical director Pat Fry has hinted that their problems run far deeper than those they are currently experiencing with the F2012 chassis.

Speaking at the Chinese Grand Prix on Friday, Fry suggested that the poor performance of the Scuderia's latest car came as a result of more fundamental issues back at their Maranello base.

He said that "methodologies" the Scuderia use during the design and development of their cars needed to be looked at.

The F2012 lacks downforce compared to its main rivals, although Fernando Alonso currently holds the lead in the Drivers' Championship thanks to his victory in the wet Malaysian Grand Prix two weeks ago.

Ferrari have already altered the design and positioning of the car's exhausts as they, like all F1's frontrunners, seek to minimise the loss in grip caused by the clampdown on blown diffusers.

More upgrades are planned ahead of next month's Spanish Grand Prix but the changes seem to be the tip of the iceberg as far as Fry is concerned.

Work on all fronts

"The exhaust is one of the more obvious changes that we've made, but that's quite a small part of the problem that we've got," said Fry, who joined the team from McLaren two years ago.

"I don't really want to go into where all the problems are - it's not just a case of us trying to build a quicker car, we need to fundamentally be changing the methodologies that we use to select, design and manufacture so that we are competitive long term.

"There's work on all fronts, not just work into what we're taking to Barcelona, there's also a huge amount of work in just trying to change the fundamentals of what we do so we can actually take a step forward and be competing with everyone else."

Fry was promoted last year as Ferrari sought to shake up their technical department in the wake of a similarly disappointing start to the 2011 season.

On that occasion, the aerodynamic problems they suffered were blamed on a disconnect between the car's performance in the wind tunnel and on track.

However, Fry suggested that little had changed at Ferrari in the intervening period.

"The biggest performance differentiator - as people mentioned earlier - is aerodynamics. We've got some issues there that we're trying to resolve," he added.

Accuracy

"The areas you need to be working on is everything from the way you run the wind tunnel, the accuracy of your wind tunnel, the simulation that you use to decide what components to take forward, so we're not leaving any stone unturned.

"We're actually trying to review and revise our methodologies through the whole process and that carries on into the design office for trying to get weight out of various parts, make other bits more durable, so there's work going on absolutely everywhere within the company, on the basic fundamental methodology as well as just trying to upgrade the car."

With Ferrari currently struggling to crack the top 10 during qualifying, Fry also said that he expected little change in their performance this weekend.

"I think our performance here is likely to mirror the first two races. We've got a few small upgrades on the car that should improve it a fair amount but then I think this track suits us less favourably than the last one really, so I expect the gaps are going to be similar. We have a lot of work to do to catch the others, particularly in qualifying," he added.

Link

[bhall]

I generally think that saying "told you so" is very distasteful.

But, in this case...

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I generally think that saying "told you so" is very distasteful.

But, in this case...

What did you tell me? Please enlighten me.

[Nando]

They need to get back to the black vs red livery.

To show they are mourning... It´s dark times and dark livery fits this perfectly.

edit: yes this is an irrelevant post.

[bhall]

What did you tell me? Please enlighten me.

No you you; the collective you.

But, since you mentioned it, don't you remember me going ape____ right around the time of the last Barcelona test?

EDIT: I'm frequently given to such reactions, so I can easily understood if they've all just blurred together.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

What did you tell me? Please enlighten me.

No you you; the collective you.

But, since you mentioned it, don't you remember me going ape____ right around the time of the last Barcelona test?

EDIT: I'm frequently given to such reactions, so I can easily understood if they've all just blurred together.

Gotcha. No I'll say you've been more right than me, you've been more critical of things than I have. I've tried staying optimistic. That said, I think there is some reason to be optimistic, but at the same time the team is in deep trouble.

I think it's obvious that Ferrari's methods are behind the times and they're suffering because of it. Fry who is a very honest & frank guy says they're fixing it, but it could take years. I truly believe Ferrari need a top aero guy from RB like Prodromou or some top guy from McLaren. The bad thing is we aren't privy to exactly what problems he's talking about.

[WhiteBlue]

I have long thought that Ferrari is in decline. They had a habit of throwing resources on every issue which isn't possible any more. They now must compete for the best engineering minds and that isn't so easy if you not a top team and located in Italy. Fry will have his work cut out to get them to a level that is necessary to be considered a top team again.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I have long thought that Ferrari is in decline. They had a habit of throwing resources on every issue which isn't possible any more. They now must compete for the best engineering minds and that isn't so easy if you not a top team and located in Italy. Fry will have his work cut out to get them to a level that is necessary to be considered a top team again.

You can try and diminish the team all you want, but Ferrari is still a top team. How you figure a team that barely lost the 2010 WDC & had the 3rd best car in 2011 isn't a "top team" is beyond me. But carry on..

[bhall]

They need to get back to the black vs red livery.

To show they are mourning... It´s dark times and dark livery fits this perfectly.

edit: yes this is an irrelevant post.

It's always darkest before dawn; midnight is where the day begins; and other various cliches.

[WhiteBlue]

You can try and diminish the team all you want, but Ferrari is still a top team. How you figure a team that barely lost the 2010 WDC & had the 3rd best car in 2011 isn't a "top team" is beyond me. But carry on..

In my view top teams are those who can compete for the championships to the end. A top driver like Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton can sign with a top team without fear that the car will not be competitive.

If you have no such second team to run the championship to the wire due to strong domination I would settle on the teams that was the last to drop out. If three teams were there at the end all three can claim to be top teams.

In 2009 Red Bull ran Brawn for top honours. Ferrari was not in it.

I agree that in 2010 Ferrari was in the top team definition. Last year they were not in the top two.

Many do not expect them to be in the top honours this year. These things are difficult to predict but Fry's outspoken comments seem to imply that there are serious structural problems at Ferrari that are not easy to overcome in some months. So we should not expect Ferrari to come back to top status this year. They will not always be lucky as they have been in Malaysia.

So if my expectations become true we would have Ferrari scoring in one out of four years and they would not have a single championship out of one of these four years either. I don't think that I'm exaggerating by saying that Ferrari are falling out of top team status.

[bhall]

In my view top teams are those who can compete for the championships to the end. A top driver like Alonso, Vettel or Hamilton can sign with a top team without fear that the car will not be competitive.

By that rationale, a top team doesn't exist in Formula One. In fact, the last team to have such status was...you guessed it...Ferrari!

"Sorry, I can't really see this going any further. We'll have agree to disagree"