2012 Stalled wings, F/ W ducts & DDRS

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Very nice write-up/analysis about how Fluidic Valves work; F-Ducts & Coanada Effect

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/467/1/tesarv1.pdf

[aduka11]

Merc F-Duct is highly overrated..

But i think thats what Brawn is aiming for...other teams will spent quite some time/resources in developing it, which will give Merc enough time for developing other areas of the car.

[WhiteBlue]

The Mercedes pace in the early stages of the race, with no DRS usage, was no different than during Qualifying when they had unlimited DRS usage. The Blown Front Wing simply makes no difference.

I think you are wrong there. Where are the data that show that there was no pace difference between Quali and Race?

DDRS allows them to dial in a lot of wing and avoid understeer. They run with a very low straight line speed with DDRS. The Merc had been fast before and the pace in China was high because they avoided the degradation that they had in the other races.

All evidence points to Red Bull putting a massive effort in to bring a DDRS soon. I would. The problem is not the lack of performance from DDRS but the integration of the tubes into the existing design.

[hardingfv32]

I think you are wrong there. Where are the data that show that there was no pace difference between Quali and Race?

I make the very simple observation that the competition was not able to challenge Mercedes in the early stages and in fact lost ground. Clear evidence that DDRS systems, as currently constituted, bring nothing to the table.

RB is not fast as McLaren, a non DDRS car. They clearly lack an understanding of this years components. Maybe the tires, as this is the most common issue the teams run into.

Brian

[PhillipM]

That depends on whether the front wing system already has some slightly stalling effect with high rear wing pressures even if the DRS isn't activated.

[GrizzleBoy]

I think you are wrong there. Where are the data that show that there was no pace difference between Quali and Race?

I make the very simple observation that the competition was not able to challenge Mercedes in the early stages and in fact lost ground. Clear evidence that DDRS systems, as currently constituted, bring nothing to the table.

RB is not fast as McLaren, a non DDRS car. They clearly lack an understanding of this years components. Maybe the tires, as this is the most common issue the teams run into.

Brian

Indeed.

The two Mercs were pulling well away from the crowd well before any DRS zone was active and even then, Nico was still on a charge till it came to tyre management time in each stint.

[WhiteBlue]

I think you are wrong there. Where are the data that show that there was no pace difference between Quali and Race?

I make the very simple observation that the competition was not able to challenge Mercedes in the early stages and in fact lost ground. Clear evidence that DDRS systems, as currently constituted, bring nothing to the table.

That doesn't prove anything. You have been confronted with contrary facts which you do not recognize. The laptime differences between Rosberg and Button in Q3 and the race was 1s and 0.5s. It is a strong indication that without the DRS the Mercedes was less superior.

As explained in the other thread DDRS effects on rake differential, ride height and understeer are carried over to the race even when the DRS isn't used. Without DDRS you have to compromise your setup in order not to suffer too much understeer at some stage.

Indeed.

The two Mercs were pulling well away from the crowd well before any DRS zone was active and even then, Nico was still on a charge till it came to tyre management time in each stint.

Again a simplified analysis. One needs to look at the total picture to understand what the benefits of DDRS are.

[bhall]

There are two ways to look at this.

Rosberg's 0.5 second margin ahead of everyone else in Q3 was because of an adjustment made before his last run.

"The track was was cooling off, the temperatures were coming down, so the rear tyres started working better. We changed setup before the last run and I did a perfect lap."

That suggests the Daffy Duct is nice, but far from mandatory.

Or Rosberg's 0.5 second margin ahead of everyone else, including his teammate, was because he was the only driver to have a Daffy Duct.

I'm still convinced that the system is fed from the scoop on top of the chassis and that the rear wing slots only activate the system. I simply can't see how air fed from the rear of the car can travel a veritable maze along the entire length of the car and still be useful when it gets to the front. Rosberg's car had the scoop - and a 0.5 second advantage; Schumacher's car had neither.

If that's the case, teams will likely have to look into developing their own Daffy Ducts or ensure that they have a car with supreme pace on Sundays.

EDIT: I suppose there's an obvious third way too look at it, and it's that Rosberg is a half-second better than his teammate. I just think the chances of that are slight.

[WhiteBlue]

I'm still convinced that the system is fed from the scoop on top of the chassis and that the rear wing slots only activate the system. I simply can't see how air fed from the rear of the car can travel a veritable maze along the entire length of the car and still be useful when it gets to the front. Rosberg's car had the scoop - and a 0.5 second advantage; Schumacher's car had neither.

There could be a simple explanation. Mercedes could be using different versions of the system. One system - the one without the scoop - is straightforward without amplification. The drag of the scoop is avoided but he front wing ride height change is also small.

The second system is two stage where the air from the rear wing operates a pneumatic relay. That relais feeds air with higher pressure from the front scoop to the front wing. It causes a greater ride height change at the front.

We know that Schumacher is quite happy with an unbalanced car where Rosberg is always best with a perfectly balanced car. Perhaps Mercedes are still evaluating both versions for their two drivers.

[bhall]

I really don't think so. According to Brawn, they didn't use the Daffy Duct in Australia. No chassis scoops on either car. They had it in Malaysia, and that's when the system was completely discovered by outside observers. But, the wet race made it impossible to judge the system either way. I discussed China in the other post.

When the cars were launched and their broken-nosed ugliness descended upon the world like rabid locusts, the one thing every "expert" said over and over again is that drag over the nose is mostly insignificant. For that reason, I don't think Mercedes is worried about any drag caused by that scoop, especially if it's worth 0.5 seconds in qualifying.

[WhiteBlue]

So what? It doesn't impact on my theory which could still be right. I reckon we will know it all in the fullness of time.

[hardingfv32]

[ One needs to look at the total picture to understand what the benefits of DDRS are.

We know and agree with the benefits of a functioning DDRS system. We what to see indications that performance of the Mercedes' system actually has a beneficial system.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

I reckon we will know it all in the fullness of time.

Sure... What do we know about the father of all the F-duct systems, McLarens? Nothing!

the best we have is a system being sold by Scrabs.

Brian

[WhiteBlue]

We know and agree with the benefits of a functioning DDRS system. We what to see indications that performance of the Mercedes' system actually has a beneficial system.

I'm getting the impression here that you are changing the tune a bit. So you say now that a well thought out DDRS is beneficial? Only you think that Mercedes are unlikely to have a well thought out system?

My thoughts are that usually the leader of a certain design or system reaps the most benefits unless he is handicapped by lack of resources which isn't true for Merc.

[hardingfv32]

I'm getting the impression here that you are changing the tune a bit. So you say now that a well thought out DDRS is beneficial? Only you think that Mercedes are unlikely to have a well thought out system?

My thoughts are that usually the leader of a certain design or system reaps the most benefits unless he is handicapped by lack of resources which isn't true for Merc.

No, my opinion has not changed. I question the quantity of flow into the DRS hole and the quality of this flow when it exits the front wing slot with the Mercedes design. We have photos of four parts, DRS hole, engine area duct, front bulkhead duct, and front wing slot. That is the only information we have about the system design. More than we usually get, but still seems a little weak for me.

A properly functioning DDRS system is wonderful idea.

I would agree that the first to a design can make the most of it, but in this case I think they are restricted by physical constraints. I just do not feel they can get the flow required to generate a meaningful performance gain.

Just seems odd that a system that WE have know about since Oct 2011 is not found on any other cars. That would be plenty of time to get a chassis modified and tested before the start of the season.

Brian