Ferrari F2012

[Gerhard Berger]

And yet with all this talk of exhausts, it doesn't seem clear to me that there's really that much benefit being gained by teams because of their exhaust positioning. [...]

I think the irony of this whole ordeal is that it seems Ferrari would have done themselves a huge favor had they stuck to their bread and butter design philosophy of expertly refining conventional wisdom, something no team does better. The regulations appear to be tailor-made for that kind of approach.

The week before the Chinese GP I thought about that. Looking at the successful designs this year and knowing the time performances of the F150, a car that could not benefit from a lot of EBD performance... the irony was pretty obvious.

If Ferrari had had a more conventional approach switching to pull rod given time, step by step... they could by now being at the front of both championships.

But sometimes a organizations are not rational. And there's also the pressing need of adaptation that couldn't be posponed any more.

It's strange. In F1 it is well known that you can not cut corners, you have to build up to a certain point. Remember how the dream team was built in the late 90s. Even now, look at Mclaren, they've built up to this point over the last 2 or 3 years. It is very rare to see a "radical" car jump straight to the top.

[f300v10]

It's strange. In F1 it is well known that you can not cut corners, you have to build up to a certain point. Remember how the dream team was built in the late 90s. Even now, look at Mclaren, they've built up to this point over the last 2 or 3 years. It is very rare to see a "radical" car jump straight to the top.

Exactly. The only time you see a team make a big leap from year to year is when there is a substancial rules change. Which makes sense as it has the effect of 'resetting' the playing field. Carry over is reduced, so teams that were behind are less so, the cars are new to all teams. Red Bull did that, and Brawn as well.

Making a big change year to year during stable rules is risky, and rarely seems to pay off. I guess Ferrari was tired of being 'close but not quite' behind Red Bull, so they decided major changes were required. Unfortunately it seems to have backfired so far. But I am holding out hope they can pull off a big update and transform the F2012. We will see in the next few weeks.

[donskar]

So what us being said here is the observations made by many in this group are collectively smarter than the aero guys at Ferrari with all the data in front if them? With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. It can't be that simple.

Very well put. The F2012 is clearly uncompetitive. That is about all we can be totally sure of.

This thread lists Ferrari's incompetent design elements (in no particular order):
Inept front suspension
Side pods whose aero result is the opposite of what was intended
"External" aerodynamics akin to a brick
"Internal" aero approximately as bad
Wind tunnel possessed by spirits (probably ancestors of A. Newey)
Amateurish simulation programs (Commodore 64-powered, I believe)
Pat Fry is a pathetic judge of talent (otherwise he'd hire US!)

I have probably missed a few weaknesses, but you get the idea.

[xpensive]

...
Very well put. The F2012 is clearly uncompetitive. That is about all we can be totally sure of.

This thread lists Ferrari's incompetent design elements (in no particular order):
Inept front suspension

I wouldn't label the front suspension a result of incompetent design per se, I think they just took the optimization a bit too far, which is something that happens now and again, I'm certain that the short-wheelbase W02 came from a similar ambition?

[Postmoe]

So what us being said here is the observations made by many in this group are collectively smarter than the aero guys at Ferrari with all the data in front if them? With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. It can't be that simple.

This is one of the most funny things with rational mammals aka humans: we are so egotist that we can end putting order rationally to something we started with axiomatic irrationalities. Only to satisfy our need to give a sense to our subjectivity and its relation with a universe that doesn't specifically care about us.

So you start with a couple of pics and some scientific knowledge and end questioning the work of a bunch of engineers with some millions backing it.

The case of the bad-looking front suspension is only the most refined and perfected example. Feel the enormous ambition in these type of mental processes... its almost overwhelming in a stendhalian way, aesthetic. But it's going to get lost like tears in the rain, with a Vangelis soundtrack clearing its way... like flow-viz in a wind tunnel, like pixels in a CFD.

Even so, we NEED this crazy ambition. Specially in this forum.

[motobaleno]

Indeed however when Ferrari were developing their car over the winter, it was legal and could've been incorporated into their car. Could possibly be one of the reasons they're suffering.
Yes this is a rumor, but it comes from Spanish media sources, which of course have ties into the team.

Really? I thought it was not legal since williams times...it is rather strange though, variable ride height gives you a HUGE advantage, so, if in a particular time window it was legal, I guess all the teams would have included it in their projects...

[xpensive]

So what us being said here is the observations made by many in this group are collectively smarter than the aero guys at Ferrari with all the data in front if them? With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. It can't be that simple.

The case of the bad-looking front suspension is only the most refined and perfected example. Feel the enormous ambition in these type of mental processes... its almost overwhelming in a stendhalian way, aesthetic. But it's going to get lost like tears in the rain, with a Vangelis soundtrack clearing its way... like flow-viz in a wind tunnel, like pixels in a CFD.

Even so, we NEED this crazy ambition. Specially in this forum.

I think you misunderstand the situation of technical debate, the point with the front suspension is that no other team, with all their resources of technical xpertise, went that route. This is what initiates the discussion among engineers, nothing else.

The way you seem to reason, "how can you question a team with all these resources and talent", makes it very difficult to discuss any car on the grid, doesn't it?

[timbo]

I think you misunderstand the situation of technical debate, the point with the front suspension is that no other team, with all their resources of technical xpertise, went that route. This is what initiates the discussion among engineers, nothing else.

Same was true for RBR in 2009.

[.poz]

Indeed however when Ferrari were developing their car over the winter, it was legal and could've been incorporated into their car. Could possibly be one of the reasons they're suffering.
Yes this is a rumor, but it comes from Spanish media sources, which of course have ties into the team.

Really? I thought it was not legal since williams times...it is rather strange though, variable ride height gives you a HUGE advantage, so, if in a particular time window it was legal, I guess all the teams would have included it in their projects...

Active williams-like is illegal. We know renault has developed a passive system that keep the car pitch constant while breaking, FIA banned it around 20 of January.

There are rumors about a similar but more sophisticated system developed by Ferrari and some speculated that F2012 is designed around this system. FIA banned it so now they have a car with aerodynamics that work well only in a narrow range of pitch and no way to keep the car pitch in that narrow range.

But Ferrari twitted that that never developed a similar system...

[Postmoe]

So what us being said here is the observations made by many in this group are collectively smarter than the aero guys at Ferrari with all the data in front if them? With all due respect, I find that hard to believe. It can't be that simple.

The case of the bad-looking front suspension is only the most refined and perfected example. Feel the enormous ambition in these type of mental processes... its almost overwhelming in a stendhalian way, aesthetic. But it's going to get lost like tears in the rain, with a Vangelis soundtrack clearing its way... like flow-viz in a wind tunnel, like pixels in a CFD.

Even so, we NEED this crazy ambition. Specially in this forum.

I think you misunderstand the situation of technical debate, the point with the front suspension is that no other team, with all their resources of technical xpertise, went that route. This is what initiates the discussion among engineers, nothing else.

The way you seem to reason, "how can you question a team with all these resources and talent", makes it very difficult to discuss any car on the grid, doesn't it?

Because you think it's easy, uh? The fact is, it's very difficult. My reasoning fits well.

And for the engineers in other teams not doing the same... they also said it had aero gain but that it could be negligeable. No one has said that it was wrong because it didn't look trendy.


Notice how even guys backed by the best equipment usually are not saying things are black or white.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Ferrari have been using two tunnels to develop the F2012 updates for Barcelona, their own in Maranello & Toyota's in Germany. Ferrari have hired former McLaren Aerodynamicist, Ben Agathangelou who has most recently been working with Dallara. Let's see if two different wind tunnels help this car develop it's aerodynamic problems.

[timbo]

Let's see if two different wind tunnels help this car develop it's aerodynamic problems.

You mean it'd be even worse?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Today in Bahrain

right click>view image

[PhillipM]

If they start putting any more holes in the brake discs they're going to look more like swiss cheese

[amouzouris]

are there any older photos of the exhausts in a similar angle for comparison?