Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Ferraripilot
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011, 16:36
Location: Atlanta

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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hardingfv32 wrote:
Ferraripilot wrote:I suspect the tubes are towards the front of the pylons and are of oval shape. You'd be amazed the CFM an engine can pull through just one intake valve diameter of say 42mm for instance. They're seeing plenty of flow to adequately stall the front wing.
1) You think. The pressure at the DDRS opening on the RW is about .10 psi and the negative pressure at the FW slot is about -.15 psi. I think a engines intake is pulling somewhat better numbers.

2) Some sample data:

Airfoil (NACA 2104) Data for 90 m/s - full 996mm wing with lower airfoil at 20 degrees and upper airfoil at 45 degrees:

Lower element has 4330.43 N downforce and 1162,28 N drag
Upper element has 1112.39 N downforce and 1146.61 N drag

The AoA of the upper element needs to be only 13-14 deg to be at zero downforce.

So with the RW flap open you have about 250 lb less downforce.

3) Remember, you are only stalling only a portion of the of the upper element of the front and that stalling does not imply a reduction to zero downforce. I doubt you can get much more than 10-20%. so you are not going to see anything like the downforce numbers you are suggesting.

Brian


10-20% of 1112.39N downforce from the upper element stalling comes to approx 82-150 foot pounds for data @ 90 m/s. Not much, but worth doing.

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mclaren777
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Joined: 30 Jan 2011, 05:35

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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While on the pre-race grid in China, Mercedes mechanics handed Schumacher what appeared to be hand-operated pumps that plugged into the area around his headrest. Does anybody know what that system is for? I assumed it was some kind of bladder for the driver seat but I wasn't sure.

I'll try to find a picture...

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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[quote="mclaren777" I assumed it was some kind of bladder for the driver seat but I wasn't sure.
[/quote]

Correct. He is old and needs to have everything just right or his back will hurt.

Brian

ivand911
ivand911
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Joined: 11 Mar 2012, 09:18

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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mclaren777 wrote:While on the pre-race grid in China, Mercedes mechanics handed Schumacher what appeared to be hand-operated pumps that plugged into the area around his headrest. Does anybody know what that system is for? I assumed it was some kind of bladder for the driver seat but I wasn't sure.

I'll try to find a picture...
Can it be his water tank?

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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hardingfv32 wrote:
1) You think. The pressure at the DDRS opening on the RW is about .10 psi and the negative pressure at the FW slot is about -.15 psi. I think a engines intake is pulling somewhat better numbers.


Brian
Where did you obtain this info from? As .10 bar is only 1.5 psi, I would find it incredible to find that such a low pressure was trapped in the wing, at a speed of 200kph +.

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Check it out and make sure I am reading the results correctly.

APR Performance
APR004 Wing Profile
CFD Analysis

Andrew Brilliant
FXMD Aerodynamics Japan Office
Document number: JP. AMB.2011.6.17.002
Last revision: JP. AMB.2011.6.24.003

PM with your Email for a PDF

Brian

RacingManiac
RacingManiac
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 02:29

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Ozan wrote:
ak21_rao wrote:If you guys have noticed, looking at the onboard laps of lewis vs schumacher in australia and nico vs kimi in china (from youtube) you will clearly notice that the W03 closes its rear wing flap 2-3 secs earlier than the others, maybe to stabilize the air flow before the braking. However it does look like W03 opens its flap a sec earlier than others. Sorry i could't do much video editing to show you guys the comparo.
this is because of the Front Wing's stalling status. With our DDRS, FW stalls with the RW. and drivers have to close DRS earlier to stop the stalling and get the traction back.
So do they manually close that? AFAIK in most cases the DRS is disabled via braking. Its also unlikely that they can open it earlier(in the race at least) as they are limited to where they can use it. In qualifying I'd imagine will be down to the driver...

MSC07-JCGX
MSC07-JCGX
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Joined: 04 Mar 2012, 01:24

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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About the DDRS i think theres two parts, 1st rear wing is only working when drs is activated so in the race it's pace will be compromised a little but the front wing is always open channeling air to the wing + rear wing then it becomes a allround system for acceleration and straight line speed.

[youtube][/youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ9cFis55xM

i hope the tyre issues are over and that they have a broader window. new exhuast layout would be nice when we head to europe [-o<

MSC07-JCGX
MSC07-JCGX
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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ak21_rao wrote:If you guys have noticed, looking at the onboard laps of lewis vs schumacher in australia and nico vs kimi in china (from youtube) you will clearly notice that the W03 closes its rear wing flap 2-3 secs earlier than the others, maybe to stabilize the air flow before the braking. However it does look like W03 opens its flap a sec earlier than others. Sorry i could't do much video editing to show you guys the comparo.
Maybe cause they are going a few kph faster at that time though.
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hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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RacingManiac wrote: Its also unlikely that they can open it earlier(in the race at least) as they are limited to where they can use it.
It is not clear to me if the opening of the DRS is automated with the use of the DRS zone start location during the race. The driver holding the activation button down early and the system opening automatically after entering the zone.

Brian

ForMuLaOne
ForMuLaOne
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Joined: 19 Feb 2011, 02:01

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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hardingfv32 wrote:
RacingManiac wrote: Its also unlikely that they can open it earlier(in the race at least) as they are limited to where they can use it.
It is not clear to me if the opening of the DRS is automated with the use of the DRS zone start location during the race. The driver holding the activation button down early and the system opening automatically after entering the zone.

Brian

It is not an automatic function. If the driver hits the button too early the DRS will sense an activation outside the zone and is disabled for further moves. This is what happened to a driver in Canada last year. Don´t remember who it was, but he said so in an interview.

feni_remmen
feni_remmen
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Joined: 26 Mar 2009, 15:43

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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WhiteBlue wrote:
bhallg2k wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:That is pretty much what I have proposed. Call it a fluidic switch or an amplifier it is still the same thing.
feni_remmen wrote:I think there is potentially quite a large difference between the interpretation of what an amplifier is as opposed to a fluidic switch. So whiteblue, while your interpretation seems the same, perhaps using the word amplifier in this context is a little more confusing the more appropriate fluidic switch.
Agreed, especially when one considers an earlier post on the subject.

In response to the idea that the gap between Rosberg and Schumacher in qualifying was the result of Rosberg having the Daffy Duct, and Schumacher did not.
WhiteBlue wrote:Or they had an amplified and a non amplified system, as I have suggested before.
I'm a bit confused here. Are you trying to say that Mercedes has two distinct systems, one that works and one that does not? Without a fluidic switch, or an amplifier as you call it, the system is just extra weight.
Perhaps I have to explain the hypothesis in greater detail.

System one, non amplified would take the air from the rear wing all the way to the front wing to stall it. The obvious disadvantage would be a relatively high pressure loss along the way. The stall effect may be reduced or not possible. Hard to tell.

System two would require the pressure from the rear wing only reach the front scoop where it switches the fluidic switch. At this point you have the full pressure again and the air has now only to make a relatively short way to the front wing stalling slits. That way the second scoop and fluidic switch has an amplifier function because it bring the pressure back to full potential.

Hey Whiteblue, I think we get the idea. Both those are the obvious solutions, and the system with a fluidic switch seems more useful, I just felt using the word amplified confused the issue. Assuming they have a system fed from the rear holes that isn't switched, then a fluidic switched system is of course comparatively amplified. I don't mean to harp on about a wording issue, it just seemed to cause confusion for those that don't understand. I will stop harping on about it.

On the issue of the flow direction in or out of the DRS holes, my first thoughts were that the flow went out those holes and the switch was activated by this function. If it is a switching system it wouldn't really matter although one way or the other would have advantages, but who's to say. Anyway, it seems that all the chatter has it going in to the holes, so I will let the discussion continue.

I really enjoy reading these posts. Thanks guys.

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banibhusan
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Joined: 06 Aug 2008, 13:08

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Image

Found a pic of the DDRS tubes coming from the rear of the car over the gearbox and through to the front of the car.

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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Yeah that have been posted i think or atleast ive seen it before, and the tube on the side i know was posted before.