2012 Stalled wings, F/ W ducts & DDRS

[WhiteBlue]

Nor is there a ban on secondary component functions.

I think there is with regard to the underlying philosophy of driver inputs. The driver is supposed to drive the car unassisted and with the most direct and mono functional inputs. As a consequence of that thinking the McLaren brake steer design was rejected. This underlying philosophy is expressed in many paragraphs and they will find something to ban it. Naturally this is opinion from my side. You are fully entitled to contrary opinion.

[hardingfv32]

Are these holes/ducts which are similar to the Merc's also in preparation for a DDRS?

Why does RB need a DDRS system that has no proven performance value even when used on the Mercedes?

Brian

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Are these holes/ducts which are similar to the Merc's also in preparation for a DDRS?

Why does RB need a DDRS system that has no proven performance value even when used on the Mercedes?

Brian

Brian teams wouldn't have protested it if they thought it was of no value. Same as Mercedes wouldn't have spent the time & money developing it, if it didn't provide an advantage. Brawn has said already, it wouldn't be on the car if it didn't provide some advantage.
We could argue all day about semantics but the bottom line is it wouldn't be there for no reason at all. Everything in F1 is done for a reason. DDRS is one of them.

[JMN]

Are these holes/ducts which are similar to the Merc's also in preparation for a DDRS?

Why does RB need a DDRS system that has no proven performance value even when used on the Mercedes?

Brian

Well, considering the lengths Red Bull previously has gone to optimize front end ride height playing with the splitter and the front wing, the secondary effect of the DDRS (the possibility of lower front-end ride height) must look very appealing.

[hardingfv32]

Brian teams wouldn't have protested it if they thought it was of no value. Same as Mercedes wouldn't have spent the time & money developing it, if it didn't provide an advantage. Everything in F1 is done for a reason. DDRS is one of them. :)

1) The protest is meaningless in this regard. What better way to not eliminate the need for absolutely any investigation effort on the subject of DDRS than to have it ruled illegal.

2) I would say that the Mercedes is not the best test platform. They could have easily seen results that seemed favorable in the beginning and believed more was to come. The system could be so weak after full development, that today they would not have proceeded with such a system.

3) Finally, we see the parts of the system but there is no way to know if in fact it is functioning. they could just be leaving visible remnants of the system on the car to sucker other tams into wasting assets on DDRS just like they have done.

Brian

[Crucial_Xtreme]

1) The protest is meaningless in this regard. What better way to not eliminate the need for absolutely any investigation effort on the subject of DDRS than to have it ruled illegal.

2) I would say that the Mercedes is not the best test platform. They could have easily seen results that seemed favorable in the beginning and believed more was to come. The system could be so weak after full development, that today they would not have proceeded with such a system.

3) Finally, we see the parts of the system but there is no way to know if in fact it is functioning. they could just be leaving visible remnants of the system on the car to sucker other tams into wasting assets on DDRS just like they have done.

Brian

I see your points, I think the best indication of the worth of the DDRS will be if any teams other than Mercedes develop & use this system.

Did you see my post where I posted the thoughts of Lotus Chief Engineer Alan Permane regarding the DDRS system? See below.

[hardingfv32]

"In the race it kind of self-compensates; you're slower because of the fuel and the fact that you're not using the DRS wing...."

This brings up a couple of unknowns for us when evaluating his statement.

1) We do not know enough about plank wear. From our "see-saw" splitter discussions, we thought most wear was from track irregularities. Here it is being implied it is more from a constant contact with the track.

2) We lack an aero map to determine how much down-force you loss by running a second or two slower laps vs the weight of the fuel. This is an interesting point. I'll if I can find some more sensitive wing aero numbers. Question: what were the 'speed' differences like say in China at the start vs the end of the race?

Brian

[hardingfv32]

Thinking about how to improve the DSR flap opening of the DDRS system.

If I develop a scoop that sticks out from the end plate, what are the restrictions?

Does the scoop have to be within the profile of the second element/flap or can it simply be located in the specified flap dimension box?

I am thinking of a scoop that is exposed when the flap is up. Maybe nested in the flap itself when it is closed.

Brian

[MIKEY_!]

Make an indent in the leading edge of the duct to catch more air. The channels within the endplate will be partially obstructed and will need moving backwards. I think it's legal. Should look a bit like the side intake on this:



The scoop can't stick out (as it would be subject to radius and closed section rules) but it can stick in.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I missed the first part of episode 66 of The Flying Lap the other week, but today watched it again. I totally missed what Scarbs said which was very interesting.

He said he was aware of a team(un-named) that was using the RW stalling device to stall the sidepods to effect the exhaust. Very interesting no?

Basically you would have a small slot or vent upstream of the exhaust, blow that and upset the downwash to the exhaust.

Of course it could be any team, but I would venture a McLaren guess. I wonder how effective this can be? Obviously to some degree if a team is using it.


Link--> http://smibs.tv/the-flying-lap/china-bahrain-2012-f1 Start listening at the 10:00 mark, I believe the moment in question starts just before the 11:00 mark.

[hardingfv32]

I wonder how effective this can be?

Before we decide how to design this feature, what benefit would we desire form the activation of the system? Reduced drag from the rear wings/diffuser? How is this accomplished?

Brian

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I wonder how effective this can be?

Before we decide how to design this feature, what benefit would we desire form the activation of the system? Reduced drag from the rear wings/diffuser? How is this accomplished?

Brian

Route from the RW like Mercedes to stall sidepod for airflow over the exhaust or to the the edges of the diffuser. This is already being done in some form or another although I'm not sure exactly what benefits it would provide.

[MIKEY_!]

I can't see how it could be useful unless the exhaust plume is interfering with air coming through the coke-bottle and causing extra drag. Having the plume flow higher (rather than close to the floor) might reduce this drag.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I can't see how it could be useful unless the exhaust plume is interfering with air coming through the coke-bottle and causing extra drag. Having the plume flow higher (rather than close to the floor) might reduce this drag.

Thanks Mikey. I asked Craig and he said basically what you just said, it would a small gain in top speed via drag reduction. Now the question is, which team is the one doing it?

[MIKEY_!]

I'm going to put my money on the sauber. It demonstrates some good straight line speed and the RB8/C31 layout has the most to gain from such a system since it creates more of a blockage ahead of the tires than the Mclaren. According to my not so finely tuned armchair CFD, air will try to come over the exhaust flow as it reaches the tires and is drawn in by the coke-bottle. If that exhaust flow was stalled and flowed horizontally it wouldn't block this air (which is a strong flow, coming around the splitter). It might still reach the brake duct fins so the DF loss would not be as pronounced. Any photos of the brake duct fins on the Sauber (or the other cars with diffuser blowing). We might see some heat shielding or burnt bodywork. There is a small 'slot' above the exhaust on the sauber but it's really thin and likely an innocent panel gap. No slot visible on the RB8 and they've only just sorted the basic diffuser blowing so this stalling is unlikely to be due to them. Mclaren is a possibility, they have less to gain but I can't find any recent shots of the exhaust area that might show a slot.