Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

[ubrben]

Im clutching for straws?
You are the one implying Pirelli can't make a competitive tire.
i showed you that is false.

No I showed some data to back up my claim.

You assumed something with no evidence and used that assumption to disagree with me - hardly an intellectually robust argument.

Ben

[Nando]

Im clutching for straws?
You are the one implying Pirelli can't make a competitive tire.
i showed you that is false.

No I showed some data to back up my claim.

You assumed something with no evidence and used that assumption to disagree with me - hardly an intellectually robust argument.

Ben

You showed data from a completely different series.

i showed you Pirelli has won 6 titles in F1, something that is in impossible to do if the tires are "2,8%" off pace or degrade like hell.

bottom line is the tires were designed to fall off rapidly.
complete opposite of what Bridgestone did.
And Bridgestone is the reason we have tires like this.

[Richard]

bottom line is the tires were designed to fall off rapidly.
complete opposite of what Bridgestone did.
And Bridgestone is the reason we have tires like this.

I'd say that's a pretty good summary of the situation. Would people agree that optimum tyre would be halfway between Pirelli and Bridgestone? For me, good racing is about having to juggle many factors. Tyres should be one of those factors, not as overwhelming as the current tyres, nor as passive as Bridgestone?

[DaveW]

Would people agree that optimum tyre would be halfway between Pirelli and Bridgestone? For me, good racing is about having to juggle many factors.

Well said... However it is probably wrong to convey the impression (unintended, perhaps), that Bridgestone is the benchmark. The last time the were competing in F1, they didn't win. Interestingly, perhaps, the tires Bridgestone produced when they became sole supplier were startlingly similar to those produced during their least competitive season (in modern times) - they were intended originally to last a race.

[Jersey Tom]

Bridgestone's tires aren't the reason we have the decree of "bring on the $*** tires!" which the spin doctors are trying to sell as being the best thing since sliced bread.

KERS, DRS, and high falloff tires are all crutches thrown at F1 to prop it up and provide an entertaining show, because the racing was junk. Don't forget that. Part of that one could say is from aero.. but I think it stems more from the field being so damn spread out due to difference in resources. Field has to be closer in competitiveness to give any given team a chance to win. For this reason I'm all for budget caps while opening up the rulebook for some more creativity and diversity.

If I had a choice I would much prefer to go with proper competitive tires... be they Bridgestone, Michelin, Goodyear, Dunlop, whoever. Maybe a couple of those. I'd much rather focus on some of the root causes of the racing being crap, than continue to throw crutches at it.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Let me ask a question, does anyone expect Pirelli to be at the level of Bridgestone right now? They have much less time & data involvement in F1 compared to Bridgestone. I would think they need some more time to be able to make "the perfect tyre" but I could be wrong. I also think that they are more or less doing what they've been asked to do. Remember Whitmarsh's quote last year, something to the effect he wished the tyres would play a larger role in the races(compared to 2011). It seems they've gotten just that.

I think as for the posts between JT & Nando, I think Pirelli haven't demonstrated they can make the perfect tyre yet. They probably can, eventually. But at the same time, they haven't been asked to do that either no?

[hardingfv32]

Jersey Tom...

What forms of racing do you find that are not 'Junk'?

I personally can usually find some moments during any kind of motor race that are 'good racing' but after 52 years of race watching I have lost the patients to sit around waiting for those good moments.

Brian

[hardingfv32]

but I think it stems more from the field being so damn spread out due to difference in resources. Field has to be closer in competitiveness to give any given team a chance to win. For this reason I'm all for budget caps while opening up the rulebook for some more creativity and diversity.

The resources among the top teams is similar, yet we have Ferrari as a disaster so far this year. So I am not sure equal resources is the answer. A more creativity and diversity also does not guaranty good racing. Take Lotus as an example last year. This is a very challenging subject with no clear answers.

Brian

[strad]

KERS, DRS, and high falloff tires are all crutches thrown at F1 to prop it up and provide an entertaining show, because the racing was junk. Don't forget that.

Boy do I agree with that...But I don't see where you come the conclusion that Pirelli CAN"T produce a competitive tire..
It smacks more of prejudice than knowledge

[xpensive]

I seem to remember that Bridgestone was instructed by MrM and the FIA to deliberately give a performance limit to the tyres?

Guess it's the same with Pirelli, it just takes them some time to get it right?

[Nando]

KERS, DRS, and high falloff tires are all crutches thrown at F1 to prop it up and provide an entertaining show, because the racing was junk. Don't forget that.

Boy do I agree with that...But I don't see where you come the conclusion that Pirelli CAN"T produce a competitive tire..
It smacks more of prejudice than knowledge

+1000

[ubrben]

Im clutching for straws?
You are the one implying Pirelli can't make a competitive tire.
i showed you that is false.

No I showed some data to back up my claim.

You assumed something with no evidence and used that assumption to disagree with me - hardly an intellectually robust argument.

Ben

You showed data from a completely different series.

i showed you Pirelli has won 6 titles in F1, something that is in impossible to do if the tires are "2,8%" off pace or degrade like hell.

bottom line is the tires were designed to fall off rapidly.
complete opposite of what Bridgestone did.
And Bridgestone is the reason we have tires like this.

Come on... seriously. World championships throughout history isn't data that indicates anything to do with tyre perfomance.

What evidence do you have that Pirelli could beat Bridgestone or Michelin in a straight fight?

DaveW is right to point out Bridgestone's struggles to beat Michelin in the final seasons of open competition. My understanding of Dave's concerns (correct me if I'm wrong) is a philosophical decision on Bridgestone's part to make the front tyre vertically (and presumably laterally) stiffer than the rear. Whilst that's important, the issue with Pirelli is compound technology. The type of degradation we're seeing is more compound related in my opinion.

Ben

[ubrben]

KERS, DRS, and high falloff tires are all crutches thrown at F1 to prop it up and provide an entertaining show, because the racing was junk. Don't forget that.

Boy do I agree with that...But I don't see where you come the conclusion that Pirelli CAN"T produce a competitive tire..
It smacks more of prejudice than knowledge

I've shown data from GT and LMP that shows Pirelli can't produce a tyre with a competitive grip level with acceptable degradation. You can pretend F1 is so different that that data isn't relevant, but that's just an assumption on your part with no data to support it.

Pirelli have the financial strength to invest and produce competitive tyre if they wanted to, but as I've pointed out their business model hasn't gone in that direction. I'd welcome the competition if they want to go down that route, but lets wait for it to happen before we get too excited.

Ben

[Nando]

Come on... seriously. World championships throughout history isn't data that indicates anything to do with tyre perfomance.

What evidence do you have that Pirelli could beat Bridgestone or Michelin in a straight fight?

DaveW is right to point out Bridgestone's struggles to beat Michelin in the final seasons of open competition. My understanding of Dave's concerns (correct me if I'm wrong) is a philosophical decision on Bridgestone's part to make the front tyre vertically (and presumably laterally) stiffer than the rear. Whilst that's important, the issue with Pirelli is compound technology. The type of degradation we're seeing is more compound related in my opinion.

Ben

Degradation and grip are two different things. It is possible to create tires that contain both aspects.
You prove that Pirelli can´t produce a good tire. Taking a "sample" from some endurance series says nothing.
This is Formula 1, big difference.
The type of degradation we are seeing is what have been asked for.

[ubrben]

Degradation and grip are two different things. It is possible to create tires that contain both aspects.

I don't understand that statement. Obviously I understand it, but it's facile - It's easy to generate good grip with high degradation. Hardly something to be proud of or excited about...

This is Formula 1, big difference.

Unfortunately you'll need to do better than that. How does the fact that it's F1 change the laws of physics??? Any racing tyre generates grip by having low dynamic modulus and/or high internal damping. Unfortunately the mechanism of grip generation by definition cause energy to be dissipated into the tread. This energy can either chemically harden the rubber by increasing cross-link density, it can tear rubber away, or it can cause other types of degradation inside the structure of the rubber.

It is very easy to decrease dynamic stiffness and increase damping but doing it in a simple and cheap way causes the rubber to have a low shear strength. This causes rubber to be torn away easily when the tyre operates and leaves lots of marbles. I'm trying to think of a series that has a problem with excessive off line tyre debris, but I can't seem to place it right now....

The reality is that making grippy rubber that doesn't degrade is a complex task that involves high investment in different raw materials and chemicals that are used to make up the rubber. Whether that rubber's used on a GT, LMP or F1 tyre does not alter that reality one bit.

The type of degradation we are seeing is what have been asked for.

No one is disputing that some degradation was asked for. What I and others are protesting about is Pirelli's PR BS that this is only because of that choice and not because of any limitation on their part. This board is about engineering, not PR. There's nothing wrong with PR, but if you are genuinely interested in the engineering aspects of the subject you should want to read between the lines and see where the line between the two really is.

Ben