Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

[bhall]

Obviously. Even empty grandstands don't hurt the F1 business model.

[hardingfv32]

So what characteristic makes the current tires so hard to master?

The teams have had plenty of time to use the normal tools to develop the setup for these tires, yet they are still able to miss the target on any given weekend or even between teammates.

I can see during the race that damaging the compound could be an issue, but we see major performance differences during qualifying that are dramatic.

These are very special tires to accomplish that.

Brian

[Jersey Tom]

So what characteristic makes the current tires so hard to master?

The teams have had plenty of time to use the normal tools to develop the setup for these tires, yet they are still able to miss the target on any given weekend or even between teammates.

I can see during the race that damaging the compound could be an issue, but we see major performance differences during qualifying that are dramatic.

These are very special tires to accomplish that.

Brian

All tires are a challenge to characterize... both with the data itself and how it is interpreted.

How much and what quality of data Pirelli supplies the teams is unknown to us.

[hardingfv32]

Assuming the construction and chemistry is consistent, it is not possible for the teams to have developed the data they need from all the actual testing/racing they have done to date?

Just through trial and error, could the not have worked their way through a lot of possible adjustments? Could there be adjustments required that the current chassis cannot accommodate?

Brian

[marcush.]

So what characteristic makes the current tires so hard to master?

The teams have had plenty of time to use the normal tools to develop the setup for these tires, yet they are still able to miss the target on any given weekend or even between teammates.

I can see during the race that damaging the compound could be an issue, but we see major performance differences during qualifying that are dramatic.

These are very special tires to accomplish that.

Brian

All tires are a challenge to characterize... both with the data itself and how it is interpreted.

How much and what quality of data Pirelli supplies the teams is unknown to us.

Paul Hembrey was stating in Racecar engineering some time ago their Toyota Test mule was effectively a tyre characterisation machine equipped with 150or something data channels solely tyre related and all these data are fully avaialable to all teams if i rememeber correctly.
If that is true to today it should provide a good base to characterise the tyres on the teams cars ,if the teams in fact measure the same things in the same quality.Hembrey said this was not the case they had a lot less sophisticated views of the tyre.

[Jersey Tom]

Paul Hembrey was stating in Racecar engineering some time ago their Toyota Test mule was effectively a tyre characterisation machine equipped with 150or something data channels solely tyre related and all these data are fully avaialable to all teams if i rememeber correctly.

I don't think that would be remotely sufficient to even start characterizing the tires. It's something nice to have down the road, but not to start with. In my opinion and experience anyway.

Assuming the construction and chemistry is consistent, it is not possible for the teams to have developed the data they need from all the actual testing/racing they have done to date?

I don't believe the construction nor tread compounds have been the same this whole time. But even if they were.. no, don't think you'd have enough.

[JimClarkFan]

I like the fact Pirelli have introduced more strategy into racing, however what is the point if in qualifying we have 3 of the top ten not even setting a time in Q3.

That is an absolute joke, and maybe Schumacher was right last week when he said it feels like they are tyre managing rather than racing at the moment.

This needs fixed, tyres more akin to those last year would be much better. Formula 1's need to put on a ''show'' at the moment is very irritating, its killing racing, and now the tyres seem to be killing the need to go as fast as you can even in quali.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[marcush.]

JT
I know we have had a lot of discussions about this in times when more substance was present here on F1T .
My personal -admittedly very restricted- view is:
you can derive most from actual data running the car in its real environment in the range of variables that could happen.
Trying to make sense out of some testing on whatever machinery is just too far from anything that happens in real world .
I might be completely wrong but my view is you need to measure and look for potential areas of performance you might have been untapped and not try to derive something from calculated stuff that cannot account for all the variables of the real thing.

[GrizzleBoy]

When a large business begins its venture to gain more customers, it's always at the expense of either the soul of the product they are selling and/or the enjoyment of the most passionate fans.

[hardingfv32]

I might be completely wrong but my view is you need to measure and look for potential areas of performance you might have been untapped

But why is this process taking so long with these tires? What characteristic would create this level of difficulty? These teams have been adapting to new tires for decades. they should know how to get the job done.

Brian

[basrawi]

I might be completely wrong but my view is you need to measure and look for potential areas of performance you might have been untapped

But why is this process taking so long with these tires? What characteristic would create this level of difficulty? These teams have been adapting to new tires for decades. they should know how to get the job done.

Brian

exactly,I think these tyres are extremely sensitive and extremely inconsistent . Any performance tyre has a temperature curve, and if the tyre is consistent through out the temp range teams can predict the variability in performance.

these tyres have a screwed up curve, at 21 c they work great at 22 the lose massively . I bet it will look like a zigzag more than a cure

[Jersey Tom]

I still don't think you're going to get very useful tire performance maps from track testing... in part for a similar reason that aero maps are created from wind tunnel data rather than driving around on a circuit (if you have the choice).

But why is this process taking so long with these tires? What characteristic would create this level of difficulty? These teams have been adapting to new tires for decades. they should know how to get the job done.

1) Entirely possible Pirelli has given the teams insufficient quantity or quality of test data. To be fair, there's no reason they HAVE to do it in a single supplier series.

2) It's difficult enough to get things squared away when you have consistent performance. When the tires go to crap after a handful of laps you have all sorts of other considerations to make.

3) The maximum camber rule puts a restriction on how much you can do.

4) The restriction on weight distribution is likewise crippling in how much you can tune the cars. Aero balance will wash this out at high speed, but weight distribution is a pretty big tuning tool for low speed handling.

[marcush.]

The weight distribution thing is the same for everyone...so in my view not counting.
The way you let aero cofp move around is of course in your hands ...

I think you touch a big issue with the tyres going bust so quick you simply have no chance to test really all options physically ,as you only have so many new sets available per day.Take into account a +/- 5% variance in spring rate and a+/-5%in compound shore hardness (that´s the numbers i got from a Pirelli Motorsport distributor.. i had no equipment at hand to verify)...the tyres were coming from the same plant if I rememeber correctly...

So JT ,in theory what would you do JT...no access to the tyres for benchmarking the tyres at home and only a few laps during the weekends ...and possibly not data not much worth...you have to carry some elaborate equipment to the track and try to characterise tyres in a non destructive way during the weekend or what?
At least in theory the tyres should be the same all year..but you may get a set or a single tyre from an older batch ...ruining all your correlating as it was stored in bright sun in Bahrein for the whole weekend...

[bhall]

Why was last year's standard weight distribution extended to this year and next year? As JT said, that's an awfully big tool to leave on the table.

One almost gets the feeling that no one really wants the teams to figure out these tires.

[Jersey Tom]

The weight distribution thing is the same for everyone...so in my view not counting.

How do you figure? Different drivers have varying preference for balance - this much is obvious. If your weight distribution is locked in... it may be perfect for Driver A, too tight for Driver B, and too free for Driver C.

The question is whether in the slow speed corners if you have enough downforce to set your balance where you want it and wash out any unwanted static weight effect.

So JT ,in theory what would you do JT...no access to the tyres for benchmarking the tyres at home and only a few laps during the weekends ...and possibly not data not much worth...you have to carry some elaborate equipment to the track and try to characterise tyres in a non destructive way during the weekend or what?
At least in theory the tyres should be the same all year..but you may get a set or a single tyre from an older batch ...ruining all your correlating as it was stored in bright sun in Bahrein for the whole weekend...

Not going to comment on this one given that it's my job in a different series.

Maybe Pirelli's data is great, maybe it isn't. Even if it is indeed great, some stuff is just out of your hands - be it by rule or by being intrinsic to the tire so much that you can't tune it out.

Really if I had to speculate I think the fall-off probably makes it much more difficult to control things the way you want.

Again this goes back to my opinion that I'd much rather have very durable and consistent tires.. where falloff isn't ridiculous and your driver can aggressively go after someone without having to worry about killing the grip and just parading around.

While I agree it makes the race outcome more of an unknown, it doesn't make the racing itself any better. Much like engines blowing up makes for an "interesting" outcome - it's still taking that outcome out of the hands of the drivers or engineers and making it random.