Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

[hardingfv32]

Tire temperature changes.... what has plays the bigger role:

A) Changes to the tire gas pressure caused by temp changes or

B) Physical or chemical changes to the tire body/thread?

Brian

[marcush.]

can we agree the tyre temperature is not the reason for tyres to perform or not but they are more an effect of tyre work?
According to this it must be possible to find yourself in corrct temperature ´range but still not benefitting from super grip as you might use the tyre wrongly.

[xpensive]

When different cars performance on different tracks almost seems to be stochastic, I'm almost beginning to wonder if there's a deliberate tyre-differentiation, with tyres delivered at random to the teams, will we see a Marussia in Q3 at Monaco?

[bhall]

You're just now beginning to wonder that? I figured a seasoned skeptic like you would have been all over this long before now.

[xpensive]

Could be worse I guess, in the days of MrM, he would probably have penalized the teams he disliked with rotten tyres...thinking they deserved it for bringing the sport into disrepute or something like that?

[marcush.]

hoho ..now we need JTs expertise .
Wouldn´t it be instantly obvious to a team when they got too wide a spread in tyre grip for the same compound?
Is the tyre allocation preselected by Pirelli or will teams compose their own sets from the total allocation for the weekend? What is ok and within the rules to differentiate the discrete tyres of all tyres delivered to the team over time ? would teams not cry out loud now receiving 2nd rate tyres someties?

On the other hand we had some interesting happenings already last year (perez was a good example in the first race back then)..could it be that sometimes the pirelli guys just put the wrong color on a set of tyres?

[hardingfv32]

There has not been any outcry about the tires being inconsistent within a specific compound during the race meetings.

When teams get it wrong, they are usually wrong throughout the race meeting. We have not seen many cases where one stint is much better than another on the same compound.

The tires have lots of embossed marking to specify what compound they are. Easy for the tire guys to verify the colors are correct. I can imagine it is hard to miss match the compounds and the tire labeling on the production floor.

None of this correctly characterizes the issue with these tires.

Brian

[zyphro]

When different cars performance on different tracks almost seems to be stochastic, I'm almost beginning to wonder if there's a deliberate tyre-differentiation, with tyres delivered at random to the teams, will we see a Marussia in Q3 at Monaco?

There was a thread about this on Autosport, tbh I'm starting to believe it. It's not surprising is it? Who wouldve thought what happened in Singapore '08, did happen?

The engineers would've cracked how these tyres work by now, but they haven't. They all seem clueless, something is weird going on, for sure.

[zyphro]

..could it be that sometimes the pirelli guys just put the wrong color on a set of tyres?

Lol I doubt this.

Although an interesting theory that I saw on a different forum was that, Pirelli could tell the truck drivers to deliver the tyres to certain teams; with no questions asked. That could be realistic... But as we all know, the team's aren't going to come out and complain in public because of PR etc. Pirelli+FIA know they need to make F1 a show to gain a bigger audience= more exposure for sponsors= more revenue.

[marcush.]

again...as a tyre engineer you will not just allow your guys to just mountthe tyres and of you go..you will surely try to get as much information of each individual tyre as is allowed within the regs.
As the interaction of tarmac and tyre compound is what you are interested in ...I´d think teams build a sizeable knowledge not only on race weekends about this interaction and it´s catalysts.
so would the engineers be running blind into a race weekend unable to conclude pireli has delivered something else as usual to us this weekend ? I´m pretty sure they cannot hide coming up with a superglue supply for selected teams/drivers randomly...as Rosberg ,Maldonato and Buttons crew would now slowly realise the one trick pony show...wouldn´t they?

[Robbobnob]

Tire temperature changes.... what has plays the bigger role:

A) Changes to the tire gas pressure caused by temp changes or

B) Physical or chemical changes to the tire body/thread?

Brian

I believe it would have to be the Physical changes. there hasn't been any significant change to the nitrogen mix that they fill the tyres with, and it is a well understood practice in the motor racing world.

From what i understand is the surface of the tyres has a very narrow operating window, so when a team / driver sets their car up to energise the tyres in that window they become susceptible to temperature change. This will drive the tyre temperature out of the zone and will start moving the surface around a lot. this is what causes the graining and what Schui described as "driving on eggs"

[Belatti]

Paul Hembrey was stating in Racecar engineering some time ago their Toyota Test mule was effectively a tyre characterisation machine equipped with 150or something data channels solely tyre related and all these data are fully avaialable to all teams if i rememeber correctly.

I don't think that would be remotely sufficient to even start characterizing the tires. It's something nice to have down the road, but not to start with. In my opinion and experience anyway.

And what is, in your opinion and experience, sufficient to characterize tires?

I dont what to be rude Tom, but your constant halo of mystery... its like you are a hostage and we need to punish you with stupid questions or opinions for you to speak.

What puzzles me about this tyres is that in my tiny weeny experience, across a weekend when the rubber gets spread in the track, tyre consumption decreases and grip increases. Maybe saturday nites rain helped in Barcelona, but still everyone suffers until the end in every race this year.

Its like this Pirellis doesnt stay between asphalt grains and only forms marbles.

What tyre related channels do you think this years cars use across the weekend?

[bhall]

If the tires simply have to be crap, can the front ones at least be wider crap?

[Jersey Tom]

Paul Hembrey was stating in Racecar engineering some time ago their Toyota Test mule was effectively a tyre characterisation machine equipped with 150or something data channels solely tyre related and all these data are fully avaialable to all teams if i rememeber correctly.

I don't think that would be remotely sufficient to even start characterizing the tires. It's something nice to have down the road, but not to start with. In my opinion and experience anyway.

And what is, in your opinion and experience, sufficient to characterize tires?

I dont what to be rude Tom, but your constant halo of mystery... its like you are a hostage and we need to punish you with stupid questions or opinions for you to speak.

Well, I'm a big fan of keeping my job and of winning races... so until I retire or if I end up in a different line of work, I'm not giving anyway anything other than public domain information or what's IMO exceedingly basic.

With regard to tire characterization... there are reasons why you ideally create aero maps from wind tunnel data, not on track. There are reasons why you ideally create an engine map from engine or chassis dyno data, not from the track. Damper curves are measured on damper dynos, not on track.

Tires? No different. To a degree it doesn't even have anything to do with the thing you're trying to examine. Doesn't matter how many sensors you sling on a car. Now to be fair, COULD you create an aero / engine / damper / tire map from track data? Sure. You could make something. Just like I COULD make an ice sculpture using a sledgehammer.

All that said... the track data Pirelli collected and made available - don't assume that's the ONLY data Pirelli supplied the teams. Even FSAE teams can get more data than that.

[xpensive]

...
And what is, in your opinion and experience, sufficient to characterize tires?

I dont what to be rude Tom, but your constant halo of mystery... its like you are a hostage and we need to punish you with stupid questions or opinions for you to speak.
...

Eh, guess I should be careful here, but that halo is perhaps sometimes easier to keep the less you speak?