armonic adsorber ?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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whiplash
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armonic adsorber ?

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Thats what i thought at first but it was a white light

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Powerslide
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Pity they banned this, it is a clever idea. Imagine jumping until the under part of a roof. When you reach the roof, use your hand to push yourself down, to get back to the ground as quickly is possible. This moveable mass dampened does exactly that, keeping the front wheel on the ground and preventing the car to jump as much as possible when there is no aero downforce to help.

:cool:

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Tom
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It would certainly explain why Renault lost alot of grip after it was removed, I imagine that was a valuable asset to them.

Out of intrest, I've only been on this site since the start of the season, are the teams this inovative? (flexi wings, movable dampers, CVT)
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

DaveKillens
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Tom wrote:Out of intrest, I've only been on this site since the start of the season, are the teams this inovative? (flexi wings, movable dampers, CVT)
Most definitely, Formula One has been a hotbed of experiment and innovation.
For many tech minded F1 fans, it's both fun and frustrating watching engineers trying to gain any advantage within the stifling, restrictive rules. When we view new (and controversial) changes, there's always lots of opinions and head scratching. And of course, when we hear about Max's proposals for rescrictive rules such as fixed engine designs and limits on technology, for many it's pure pain and anguish. To see the bright flame of innovation and invention stifled by restrictive rules really pains many fans, because over the years we have seen many wonderful innovations.
Six wheelers. Turbos. Active suspension. Wings. Carbon Fiber. Paddle shifters. These are just the tip of the iceberg, the wonderful history of Formula One technology is glorious and wonderful in it's inventiveness and application.

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Ciro Pabón
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DaveKillens wrote:... These are just the tip of the iceberg, the wonderful history of Formula One technology is glorious and wonderful in it's inventiveness and application.
Dave, sorry if I am bringing you back to earth, but some of us think F1 technology is starting to look like full of "inventiveness and application" for F1 races only. Downforce by itself. Rpms for the sake of it. A thick rule book that can be thrown away at midchampionship... I could go on, if pressed.
Ciro

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Ciro, while a typical street car actually makes lift and not downforce, the gain from aerodynamics of race cars is the limiting of drag on street cars in order to improve fuel milage and improvement of aero balance at highway speeds. And those 500 extra RPMS is due to a new material development that eventually may further the life of street car enignes or some other mecahnical aspect of the car. Composites are used more and more on street cars, though they are usually done in a chop strand spray rather than weave for easy of manufacturing and time. And who's to say that Renault's dampner system won't find it's way onto a street car soon, after all what does it do? Stabalize the car more so that the driver isn't dealing with loss of front end grip after the curbs or a large bump. Many of the current F1 inovations won't show up for many years if they show up at all, but they are almost all applicable to street cars.

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Ciro Pabón
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neils wrote:... Many of the current F1 inovations won't show up for many years if they show up at all, but they are almost all applicable to street cars.
Neils, first of all, welcome. I thank you for putting succintly on "paper" what I used to believe is the truth, verse and letter.

However, my impressionable mind has been corrupted and I wander away, a ghost of myself, an unbeliever. Let me tell you what happened and maybe you can avoid the same fate:

I discovered in this forum that the aerodynamic shape of a car has almost nothing to do with the F1 aero. I put some photo of an egg-shaped concept and it had, I do not know, like 0.2 CV. I asked what the CV of an F1 was and... It is around 1.0, concluded my forum friends. It is the down force price, they said.

I received a little shock (I was working informally with a team of friends on a pre-design for a hybrid solar car and I was admiring other approachs to design, to be sincere) and maybe I have not recovered.

Nowadays, I see "yet another" platelet, wing thingy or flappie artifact and I think of a baroque church... another convolution on the basic design, forgotten long time ago, if you catch my drift.

Later, clinching my teeth, I read from cover to cover the entire regulations, annexes and all (finally). You cannot fail to notice that materials are severely restricted, so innovations in engine and most of the power train (mainly) are left to other type of races. This material "redirected" me to read about Le Mans, for example, and I learned that they give prizes to thermal efficiency, and that it was a prize Chapman always was keen to fight for.

Before the Renault damper, talking about weight shifting on this very forum, very patient friends told, again, that a damper system, only improved, is used on the 2CV. There are problems with regulations to apply the Citroen system in F1, besides dampers. You know, front and rear axles are connected, they explained.

Neils, one day I started to ponder that most of the standard features in today's cars, the very things you expect to have if you don't cut corners on your visit to the car dealer, like ABS brakes, active suspension, rolling and skidding control, ECU tuning, traction control and the rest, are forbidden in F1.

Then, another day, I discovered the abysmal efficiency of the F1 car in terms of mpg or km/liter, (a day I was working on a paper on the future of fuel for my country, so I don't know if I was too "green" on the subject).

I do not know if this "enlightens" you or not.

I believe I understand the arguments you give, because they used to be my own until mid 90's, a pivotal epoch in F1. I need more of them (arguments) to change my point of view about (what I think is a) cliché: "pinnacle of motor sport." Notice how it is not "top of auto world".

Maybe you can redeem a lost soul. I confess I have catch myself thinking if it is not better to take "industrialism" by the horns, like NASCAR does... :) Lately, I don't even remember where did I put my framed Jack Brabham photo. Can somebody help me?
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 02 Aug 2006, 00:48, edited 2 times in total.
Ciro

zac510
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I can find very minimal evidence to prove that F1 was every designed to develop road car parts, like some people (not necessarily in this thread) claim.

It always has seemed to be a side effect of racing cars, that you eventually develop something applicable. Or back in the 50s/60s, road cars were something that you did to keep the racing team alive!

We don't have to justify the worth of motor racing by its input to commuter cars. Just look at football - keeps beer brewerys, pubs and Sky TV afloat, that's about it!

dumrick
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Ciro Pabón wrote:Maybe you can redeem a lost soul. I confess I have catch myself thinking if it is not better to take "industrialism" by the horns, like NASCAR does... :) Lately, I don't even remember where did I put my framed Jack Brabham photo. Can somebody help me?
I'm personally trying to find a poster of the Audi R10 to hang on my wall, to live in the fantasy that racing technology and road car technology evolve hand-in-hand.

And zac510, actually I believe that the point is not whether in F1 can some technology arise that could be developed into everyday car use. Is more that the FIA seems to ban every new technology that may arise, may it be NASA expertise or clever use of fundamental concepts. I believe that, after the engine freeze, the chassis freeze will follow shortly... freezed at year 2000 level...

Saribro
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zac510 wrote:It always has seemed to be a side effect of racing cars, that you eventually develop something applicable.
Indeed, the eternal quest for performance pushes racing teams to try out new ideas, new designs, new materials, new .... and they implement them very aggressively and, of course, focused on racing. Now, it's very logical that you won't find straightforward ports of these implementations to consumer vehicles (they really aren't meant/suited for that). Many of the actual ideas and materials will show up after they've been analysed and re-implemented, in a way that actually makes sense on consumer vehicles, and probably more importantly, in a way that actually makes it cost effective. Sometimes, this re-implementation makes certain concepts hard to identify and relate to motorsport, but that doesn't mean the relation is not there.

Mikey_s
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For Ciro...

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Ciro,

your most recent post on this thread nearly brought tears to my eyes! I now have a mental image of a distraught Mr (Dr?) Pabón drifting aimlessly around the streets of Bogota and it pains me to think of you that way. In the hope that this might reignite the fire in your heart for F1 - perhaps I can assist.

I love F1 for the technology, my background (and heart) is from a research & development laboratory (although I have a desk job now). It is my view that fundamental research leading to highly applied research is seldom wasted effort, although it is generally a long term investment which is often a difficult sell to senior management - who see it as costly and low return in the short term. However, when I look at the pictures of Hockenheim from Principessa and see the wonderful sculptures of the engine covers I am awestruck - how do they make such beautiful structures that are so thin, light, yet strong enough to generate enormous downforce. Each little curve manipulates the airflow to extract more energy from it. Even though I preferred the V10 (and before that the V12), the sound of the engines is still music to my ears (my 3 year old daughter still talks about the cars that sound like fireworks she saw at Spa) - the technology is exquisite and, again my own view, will inevitably find its way into general use in one way or another.

The British Army took advice from F1 pit crews trying to learn how to better coordinate maintenance crews and I am sure that if I wanted some state of the art engineering I would visit one of the companies specialising in that field of materials engineering from F1.

Although the 'sport' is now a business (and a big one at that) the companies involved do not do this for the love of engineering, they are in it for money - Williams, Cosworth and McLaren are engineering companies - their success (....!!) is a showcase for their expertise, Renault, BMW, Mercedes, Honda and Toyota all use F1 to support the branding of their cars as ultimate technology and Ferrari... well let's just say this is what you buy when you purchase a Ferrari. I am certain that the composite moulding techniques, engine mapping, aero development models that they develop for F1 are the basis for the computer models used for designing their road cars. I cannot imagine why the companies would participate if there was no link to the real world... I happen to work for an oil company that supplies a certain team that Manchild dislikes - I know that the lubricant and fuel research (although immensely costly) does generate tangible benefits for the real world - extremes are very useful for testing models, and I know that my company would not spend the money that they do without a return on the investment (of course there is the Brand value too, but that's a long story).

Dear Ciro, please don't despair, look again at the pictures from Hockenhein and marvel at these beautiful, ferocious machines - the link to the real world does exist, not just in the distant future but in the present too. Research is always a good investment and I admire the incredibly short time between research and implementation that F1 has - a real pressure cooker environment.

I hope that this goes some way to reigniting the spark Ciro, I can't stand the thought of you becoming disillusioned with the sport... plus I like your wacky thinking and your crazy sense of humour.

Having said all of that, I wish they would throw away the rule book and let the researchers see what they could dream up - we could see some astonishing vehicles; fancy starting a new racing series anyone???? F-U(nlimited)
Mike

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Powerslide
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Actually, tons of formula 1 technology goes to sports cars. Just reverse time and today's sports cars are like formula 1 cars of the past when those formula 1 cars were not like contemporary peoples transporter.

Today we are getting cars that are using rear diffusers, side skirts (late 70's formula 1 cars), aluminium alloy wheels, double-wish bone all around, disc brakes all around, electronic fuel injection, four valves per cylinder, monoque aluminium chassis for the Elise(not to mention carbon straight out of formula 1), carbon clutch (Carrera GT), semi-automatic shifting manual gearbox and seat belts :wink:

It happens but the distance that they are ahead are incredble. Lets take formula 1 in general and take the total amount accumilated money spent on research and development. Huge sums, that is how far in front they are.

:cool:

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_mark
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This is the real shape of the mass dumper:

Image

1 tungsten disc

2 big spring

3 small spring

4 carbon cover

5 damper (linked in one of his ends to the chassis of the car)

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Ciro Pabón
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After watching the previous post I had an idea:

Can the mass dumper be located (or "hidden") on the part of the shock absorber that is fixed to the chassis? After all, it would be only 2.25 kilos on each one if you want a total damper mass of 9 kilos, as allegedly Renault did...

I mean: you do not have to put them on the center of the chassis. Or do you?

Have this idea been developed? Again, by this idea I mean "damped" shock absorbers...

Anyway, I would love to see what the FIA would say about it. The more I think about it, more confused I am:

How could you forbid a mass damper INSIDE the shock absorber? :wink: I would like to see the ruling.
Ciro

DaveKillens
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I was thinking along the same lines, Ciro. if you have some kind of free floating valve inside a shock, that opens and closes ports depending on the G's, it could damp out suspension movement in a like manner.
Since the shocks are usually mounted horizontal these days, maybe a sort of offset bobweight rotating around the shock shaft?