Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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MemroableC
MemroableC
1
Joined: 25 May 2011, 18:24

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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While i don't like how another roll hoop would look one must keep in mind that driver safety is paramount too the point that performance and looks might begin to suffer.

My only issue with a windscreen canopy thing machin drew up is that it might get to the point where it could actually cause more problems then good. It may slow a driver in exiting the car during a fire, and even worse after a big off it might trap a driver in the car and god forbid it catches fire.

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N12ck
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Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 19:10

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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ESPImperium wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote: I agree. Both are horrid.

The problem with safety is that F1 is in to the situation of diminishing returns. It can't be 100% safe so long as humans are in the cars and close to the circuit. But those in charge seem to feel it necessary to reduce risk as far as they can.

I have half a thought that this is as much about the FIA putting out the idea of canopies and front roll hoops in the hope that the drivers, teams and fans will say "no, that's not what we want".
I have 2 problems with the roll hoop.

1] The hoop will make drivers push the limits more and this will then show up another weakness in F1 safety. And it could also possibly just give the unthinkable to happen. It was 18 years ago that happened.

2] The roll hoop will impair visibility, and thus be counterproductive to what the FIA has been trying to increase for about the past 4 to 5 years now as drivers are now 28mm to 35mm higher than in 2007 seemingly.

If you're gonna make F1 like the Red Bull X2012 you may as well enclose the wheels and then see if you can enter LMP1HY class at Le Mans.
well as we now know looking at my mockup without a doubt it causes too much of an obstruction to your view, which could cause more incidents....
Budding F1 Engineer

Lycoming
Lycoming
106
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 22:58

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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I don't think anybody seriously intends to run front roll hoop, so theres little sense debating something so universally loathed.
strad wrote:
however isn't there supposed to be some sort of danger?
I'd say yes but most seem to think not.
Thats the sort of thinking that was prevalent during Jackie Stewart's era. You seem to be forgetting that its just some debris protection; they're still going at over 300 km/h and pulling 5 G's on tracks where the barriers can be quite close at times.

Perez was out for 2 races after his concussion at Monaco, and Rosberg very narrowly avoided a similar fate. Does that not count as an element of danger? Or is it too safe just because most of the time, they just walk away from crashes? Even if that is the case, I'm pretty sure they will be feeling it the next morning in some of those crashes. The drivers know that if they screw up, they will hurt themselves.

Are you saying that this does not count as "some sort of danger"? or is it preferable to go back to the way it was in the 70's, with drivers dropping like flies?

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strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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Hmmmm I thought I posted this already....
IF that's the route they want to go they should incorporate a canopy similar to a Top Fuel drag boat.
Somebody mentioned distortion..I have been in both a drag boat and a Hydro and both were very clear.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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MIKEY_!
7
Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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I really like the explosive wheel deflating idea. Regarding the talk about lack of danger, I agree too. Safety is good but there is a little to much these days, I feel it is getting in the way of 'the show'.

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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MIKEY_! wrote:I really like the explosive wheel deflating idea. Regarding the talk about lack of danger, I agree too. Safety is good but there is a little to much these days, I feel it is getting in the way of 'the show'.
Considering that the wheels are adequately tethered, having somthing armed on the car ready to deflate the tyre in an instant sounds to me like more of a libaility than a help.

How would you go about changing a tyre in a pitstop with such a system?

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

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safeaschuck
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Joined: 23 Oct 2008, 07:18

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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Going back to the camera fed display, I know I'm looking way into the future here... but it comes round quicker than most of us anticipate.
Once the technology can deliver a driver a full visual experience remotely, the only reson for being in the car is the other 4 senses.
As anyone who has driven a sim racer knows touch, or really feel, is easily the most important of the remainders. Sound can be replicated pretty effectivly, I don't think taste or smell are going to get you another 1/10th so a simulation rig which can go some way to replicating the seat of the pants driving feel (non-existent at the moment, as far as I'm aware) could be fashioned and tested alongside the direct feed cars. i.e. most drivers will be in the cars, possibly a midfield or backmarker, or a rosta of rotating teams could be used to develop the rig driven cars, within the same rules as the others at first.

By backing off some of the G-forces a driver experiences, tuning out distracting inputs etc, you may even get the drivers to go faster, they would certainly be able to maintain peak concentration for longer.
Also, rather exitingly, you remove the physical limitations of the human body from the vehicle allowing things like stiffer suspension, you remove a lot of weight, and of course you remove the risk to human life.
This opens the door to some truly epic speeds and potentially a greater spectacle, raising the bar for driver reaction times. It suggests the posility that wild cards might be drawn, or at least evaluated from the sim racing world, simultaneously lowering the fitness threshold (A bit, temporarily) allowing the chance for less well financilly backed competitors a chance to shine (the elusive 'real talent'). I should point out here I'm NOT a sim racer. I don't currently own any sim software or even any driving games or console (not looking for sympathy here :D ).
Also there's the possibility that computer programs might be more readily tested and improved in a like for like scenario against human competitors.

If all this seems just a bit far fetched remember the state of Nevada has just granted a license for google's autonomous car.
On of the weathiest companies in the world is putting quite a few golden eggs in this basket. They aren't doing it entirely as an exercise to show what can be done, they are doing it because they beleive they may make a very large amount of money out of it. For that to happen that they will need to sell a lot of autonomous cars, and less of us will need to drive for that to happen.

I'm kind of suggesting the sport will eventually eat itself in it's quest to develop and stay relevant, some might say it already has. I think I'd prefer to see that than watch it fall completely from relevance and wither away, at least it provides better talking points. Maybe it might find a way to make another leap and stay alive.
I'm very jealous for the glory days of F1, although I wasn't there, The Silverstone Classic and Goodwood are two of my best days out, todays racing is pretty good too but POSSIBLY suggesting a car have a driver in it, might one day soon be like suggesting the engine should be in the front, or wings are unnecesary, crossply tyres can't be bettered, or it's safer to have no seatbelt as you'll be thrown clear in a big accident.

I Also agree that the distortion from a canopy that otherwise protects the driver shouldn't be a deal breaker, it can't be that bad. If it really makes it undriveable then what about fibre optic strands to redirect the light into it's undistorted form? Could they be layered in carbon fibre somehow?

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machin
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Joined: 25 Nov 2008, 14:45

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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I think that all depends on what you want F1 to be... it would be relatively easy now to make the cars way faster if you took away the restrictions... Howvere, I think generally people want to see an onboard human driver fighting against about 5g of cornering load even if it means the car is ultimately slower than one with a remote driver... The rules are constantly evolving to maintain that level of performance rather than attempting to increase it....
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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myurr wrote:If they're worrying about tyres then couldn't they come up with some system that deflates the tyre if it detaches from the car? Maybe an electrically operated valve or explosive charge that opens / fires when an electrical connection to the car is removed? The system could be armed at the point it is attached to the car and if it detaches then it explosively deflates, stopping the tyre from bouncing down the road or into the spectators (something a canopy does protect against).

Whilst this wouldn't protect against other types of debris there has only been a single accident in the 25 odd years I've been watching F1, that I remember, where something large has fallen off a car and hit another driver causing injury.

For me part of the appeal of F1 is being able to see, and therefore connect with, the drivers which is something a closed canopy removes.
That sir, is a damn good idea! I had not considered a deflatable tire on disconnect.

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flynfrog
Moderator
Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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safeaschuck wrote:Camera Fed...
The problem with a camera fed display is when the persons vision does not agree with the other senses the body revolts. I did a bunch of work with Virtual Reality rooms and if the timing was slightly off you could make people motion sick almost instantly.

Early 3d amusement rides had this problem. Also I think a solar car team tried it in the early 90s with similar results.

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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BreezyRacer wrote:
myurr wrote:If they're worrying about tyres then couldn't they come up with some system that deflates the tyre if it detaches from the car? Maybe an electrically operated valve or explosive charge that opens / fires when an electrical connection to the car is removed? The system could be armed at the point it is attached to the car and if it detaches then it explosively deflates, stopping the tyre from bouncing down the road or into the spectators (something a canopy does not protect against).
That sir, is a damn good idea! I had not considered a deflatable tire on disconnect.
Wish I could claim it as my own. I'm sure I read the idea on this very board as posted by someone else. It really struck a chord with me as it solves a very real problem that isn't fixed by the canopy - tyres bouncing into the crowd or hitting a marshall.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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myurr wrote:Maybe an electrically operated valve or explosive charge that opens / fires when an electrical connection to the car is removed? The system could be armed at the point it is attached to the car and if it detaches then it explosively deflates, stopping the tyre from bouncing down the road or into the spectators (something a canopy does protect against).
Novel idea (I don't mean that dismissively), and one that Mercedes has used on the SLS to combat the inherent problem of gullwing doors in the event of a rollover, but I wonder how F1 drivers would react to the possibility of a malfunction of such a system. And could it possibly add an element of roulette to pit stops?

I think quite a bit of the hazard of loose tires could be addressed by simply making the anchors to which the tethers are attached more robust, perhaps even integrated into the chassis rather than bolted on as veritable afterthoughts.

The following picture highlights the tether anchor on the E20, one of the more solid-looking systems.

Image
(Click to enlarge)

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MIKEY_!
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Joined: 10 Jul 2011, 03:07

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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Roulette element of the pitstops with explosively deflating tires can be solved by placing the break-away detonator in the uprights (the bit that has the brakes attached to it) the explosive will only trigger when that component separates from the chassis. Of course that means if a wheel is not attached properly (in a pitstop) and falls of it will not deflate. Maybe a remote secondary detonator is required in the cockpit for use in such a situation.

Can the tire still reach the drivers head like how senna was killed without the tethers failing?

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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No. The tethers are only as long as the suspension members in which they're located.

I don't know anything about explosives one way or another. So, I can't knowledgeably comment on the matter. But, from my admittedly ignorant perspective, it does seem like it would take a lot to do enough damage to a cast aluminum upright to be effective for this purpose.

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

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FIA doesn't want canopies as it will reduce drag and will be the new focus of the aero department

interesting pic of a top fuel dragster with a canopy

Image