2012 Monaco GP - Monte Carlo

[stefan_]

After watching onboard, i feel that it would have been very difficult for him to keep an eye on the mercedes, considering the jolt Alonso gave him. Really bad luck on the Frenchman's part in my opinion.

[grosjean onboard video]

It certainly doesn't look egregious on Grosjean's part, but I still think he moved too far to the left after contact with the Ferrari. My pet theory is that these kids grow up karting aggressively from the time they're little kids and they never really learn what defensive driving is. We went over this in last year's Monaco's thread - learn to keep yourself out of trouble.

It is my belief that a more aware driver would have sensed there was a car on the left. Maybe he could have heard Michael's engine; maybe he could have seen him in his mirrors. I know when I'm driving I have a sense (from regularly checking my mirrors) of whether I have space to move to the left if something is encroaching on my space when I'm in the curb lane, e.g parked car door being opened, car looking to pull onto the road, etc. If I know there is no one in the way I am comfortable moving half-over into the next lane to give a wide berth, but at least I know whether there is someone there or not. Granted it's just street driving, but I have the mindset of paying attention to who's around me 360 degrees and importantly, desiring to avoid contact. Grosjean (and others) are sort of like "whoopsy daisy, guess there was someone in that space I tried to occupy after all..."

Besides, jeez, it's the first corner at Monaco. If there's one place you don't want to move about willy-nilly it's the first corner at Monaco. He should have stayed closer to Alonso IMO. Better to hug the devil you can see than drift over to the one you can't.

We are talking Formula 1 here, not youd daily traffic stiuations for god's sake. Stop giving awareness advices based on what you experience during daily traffic. And in karting if you are not agressive you can as well pack your bags and do ballet.

[raymondu999]

We are talking Formula 1 here, not youd daily traffic stiuations for god's sake. Stop giving awareness advices based on what you experience during daily traffic. And in karting if you are not agressive you can as well pack your bags and do ballet.

I'm lost. What are you replying to?

[djos]

I think were it not for Raikkonen, Vettel would have won today. Raikkonen hit the cliff a la China, and he just held up the midfield, giving the leaders a gap. Had he not hit the cliff, or had he pitted as soon as he hit the cliff, then the leaders would have had traffic, and given Vettel that extra 3 seconds for his pitstop gap (I believe the gap at its peak was 17.2s over Webber).

I disagree. Even without rain, Vettel could still have won. Without the Raikkonen train clearing a gap to Vettel (It was up to 12s of free air between Raikkonen and Vettel at one point) then when the leaders pitted they would be stuck in traffic. Vettel at one point had 17.2s of a gap to Webber. Had he had 3 more seconds it would have been a victory for Vettel.

Hey mate, Webber mentioned in the post race press conference that he was keeping an eye on the gap to Vettel and wasnt going to let him "get the magic 21 second gap" he would have needed to jump him.

[raymondu999]

I know - but he could do that because he could push on demand. But if Raikkonen hadn't hit the cliff, there would be a sea of midfielders with just about no field spread - the leaders wouldn't be able to pit, or would be forced to pit into traffic. He had 17s of clean air between him and Vettel - he could go a second faster (providing the car was capable) if he tried to. But if he has traffic, he can't drive into another car. If you get what I'm talking about.

[djos]

I know - but he could do that because he could push on demand. But if Raikkonen hadn't hit the cliff, there would be a sea of midfielders with just about no field spread - the leaders wouldn't be able to pit, or would be forced to pit into traffic. He had 17s of clean air between him and Vettel - he could go a second faster (providing the car was capable) if he tried to. But if he has traffic, he can't drive into another car. If you get what I'm talking about.

I get your point but Webber only ever drove as fast as he needed to and was always going to win under the conditions, imo he controlled the race masterfully - had it rained properly that would have definitely made things easier for Seb but thankfully it didnt.

[raymondu999]

I don't think you're understanding my point. When Webber came out he was (in terms of race position) behind Vettel, with something like a 10.1s gap. That 10+ second gap was there because of Raikkonen holding everyone up. Had Raikkonen not held everyone up, then behind Vettel would be a gaggle of cars which the leaders would have fed into (gaps weren't opening up in the 1st stint - most people were within 2s of the guy ahead).

That would then have held the likes of Webber/Rosberg up, and given the slower pace they would be constrained to, they would also not be able to heat their tyres up at any quick rate - and helped Vettel build up more of a gap. Webber wouldn't have been able to "drive as fast as he needed to" in said scenario, because that would entail tailgating the car ahead.

[dxpetrov]

Webber wouldn't have been able to ''control the race'' if ended up slotted behind slower cars after his pit stop. And that's exactly the time SV would have built up 21 sec gap before his pit-stop.

[raymondu999]

That's what I'm saying, and what djos (I think) isn't catching on to.

[McMrocks]

Hi guys,

can anybody explain to me what happened with Alonso between lap 16 and 17
there was no pit stop but he drove 1.1 seconds faster in lap 17 than in the laps before.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton


Are the Pirellis really predictable?

Fernando had been saving his tyres up to that point. If Ferrari would have left him out, he would've not only undercut Lewis, but also Rosberg & Webber. That call probably cost him the race win, but Fernando said they were unsure about the tyres.

Fernando Alonso: "We could have jumped Nico and Mark, if we had stayed our a few laps longer on super softs. But couldn't predict tyres."

If a driver drives a second slower to safe tyres we call this racing? I watched the Indy 500 yesterday, this was racing

[raymondu999]

No driving a second slower is called saving tyres. He did that so that he could do some racing later on, or try to.

[bgroovers]

I am hugely impressed the Fernando's driving this season and this race in particular. His conservation of tires early in the race was masterful and showed real understanding of the tire situation this year. Its easy to say in hindsight that they might have jumped Rosberg and Webber for the lead if they stayed out another lap or two but this just shows that it was Alonsos excellent stratergy that got him ahead of Lewis rather than McL messing up. Yes the McL pit stop was 0.6 seconds slower than Ferraris but in was the pace that Alonso could drive at whilst Lewis had to pit and then found along with everyone that the tire warm up on the prime tire didnt allow for a fast outlap.
I wonder how much is strategy that is devised in conjunction with Ferrari prior to the race and how much is Fernando thinking ad hoc once the race is underway. Or is it the brains of his engineers telling Fernando what deltas to set.
Either way the Ferrari/nando team are adapting best to the 2012 season as proved by his lead in the championship and this is the emerging pattern of 2012.
Where McL did let Lewis down was in appearing not to give him the information he needed to stay ahead of Vettel and this is just not on. He was clearly driving to deltas at this point in the race and could have set a time .5sec faster in the laps proceeding Vettels pitstop even if he did hurt his tires a little, as proven by history in Montecarlo, track position is king!
Did anyone feel that McL could have thrown a curve ball around 15-20 laps to the end by bringing Lewis in from 5th and coming out in 6th with brand new super softs when a pit stop window opened behind him caused by Schumis failing fuel pressure. A gamble of dropping one place but this could have forced everyones hand into a second pitstop and therefor overtaken them on the undercut. He would surly have had a good chance on Fellipe to get back to 5th with massively superior tires in the last lap or two if non had pitted or even finished 2nd to Vettel (who would have won if the others had taken the 2 stop bait).
I do however accept that this was possibly not considered as it sounded like McL really believed the rain was coming earlier. Wishful thinking? Its clear that McL need to start taking control of the own destiny as Luca would put it...

[myurr]

Did anyone feel that McL could have thrown a curve ball around 15-20 laps to the end by bringing Lewis in from 5th and coming out in 6th with brand new super softs when a pit stop window opened behind him caused by Schumis failing fuel pressure. A gamble of dropping one place but this could have forced everyones hand into a second pitstop and therefor overtaken them on the undercut. He would surly have had a good chance on Fellipe to get back to 5th with massively superior tires in the last lap or two if non had pitted or even finished 2nd to Vettel (who would have won if the others had taken the 2 stop bait).
I do however accept that this was possibly not considered as it sounded like McL really believed the rain was coming earlier. Wishful thinking? Its clear that McL need to start taking control of the own destiny as Luca would put it...

Yeah, I actually called that in the race. Should have brought him in for softs (rather than super softs) so that he could really push on. At that point he would have needed to go 1s per lap quicker which would have given him plenty of life left in the tyres towards the end of the race when the rest were running 2 - 3 seconds further off the pace.

Still at Monaco is a 3 - 4 second a lap advantage enough to get past? Probably not. His lap times could have caused one or more of the other drivers to blink and given him a chance to get past them whilst they pit but that's a pretty big risk.

Either way McLaren do need to get on top of their strategy and pit lane work. I hate to crap on Sam Michael but he was brought in, and presumably paid a lot of money, to specifically sort this aspect of the operation out. If anything his influence so far has had the opposite effect. They're being made to look amateur by the other teams and that has got to be hurting.

[bgroovers]

Hi guys,

can anybody explain to me what happened with Alonso between lap 16 and 17
there was no pit stop but he drove 1.1 seconds faster in lap 17 than in the laps before.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton


Are the Pirellis really predictable?

Fernando had been saving his tyres up to that point. If Ferrari would have left him out, he would've not only undercut Lewis, but also Rosberg & Webber. That call probably cost him the race win, but Fernando said they were unsure about the tyres.

Fernando Alonso: "We could have jumped Nico and Mark, if we had stayed our a few laps longer on super softs. But couldn't predict tyres."

If a driver drives a second slower to safe tyres we call this racing? I watched the Indy 500 yesterday, this was racing

Just looked at the excellent page linked by McMrocks
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Shows that Fernando saving tires upto lap 17 then blitzing onto back of Lewis on lap 29. Lewis in lap is 1.39.696 ( i believe this includes the pitstop that is only 0.6sec slower than Fernandos). Whilst Lewis pits Fernandos tires start to drop off following his charge upto back of Lewis. His in lap whilst Lewis is struggling to warm up new primes is 3.43 seconds quicker at 1.36.242! Massive difference. Is this because Lewis drove a poor in lap? Its not the difference in pit stop times! So we cant blame the team...
Fernados out lap is then also 0.386 faster than Hamiltons out lap although by then he had track position. The rest of the differnce to the 5.6seconds he made up on Lewis in those 2 laps is the 1.8 seconds he made up by staying out a lap longer than Lewis although this is when he started to experience the drop off on lap 29.
Fernando jumping Lewis was therefor caused by better understanding of when and how to use the tires to best effect by team AND driver...
From the drop off Fernando experienced from lap 28 to 29 they also brought him in at the perfect time rather than get greedy and try to jump the two ahead as well in my humble opinion....
This is very reminiscent of the kind of driving we saw by Schumacher in the refueling era to jump another car. Conserve fuel, whilst bottled up and unable to overtake (due to domination of areo prior to DRS) , get an extra lap to bang in a fast time, emerge several seconds down the road leaving the other bewildered driver to blame his team for pitting too early.... Discuss.

[GrizzleBoy]

Just looked at the excellent page linked by McMrocks
http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

Shows that Fernando saving tires upto lap 17 then blitzing onto back of Lewis on lap 29. Lewis in lap is 1.39.696 ( i believe this includes the pitstop that is only 0.6sec slower than Fernandos). Whilst Lewis pits Fernandos tires start to drop off following his charge upto back of Lewis. His in lap whilst Lewis is struggling to warm up new primes is 3.43 seconds quicker at 1.36.242! Massive difference. Is this because Lewis drove a poor in lap? Its not the difference in pit stop times! So we cant blame the team...
Fernados out lap is then also 0.386 faster than Hamiltons out lap although by then he had track position. The rest of the differnce to the 5.6seconds he made up on Lewis in those 2 laps is the 1.8 seconds he made up by staying out a lap longer than Lewis although this is when he started to experience the drop off on lap 29.
Fernando jumping Lewis was therefor caused by better understanding of when and how to use the tires to best effect by team AND driver...
From the drop off Fernando experienced from lap 28 to 29 they also brought him in at the perfect time rather than get greedy and try to jump the two ahead as well in my humble opinion....
This is very reminiscent of the kind of driving we saw by Schumacher in the refueling era to jump another car. Conserve fuel, whilst bottled up and unable to overtake (due to domination of areo prior to DRS) , get an extra lap to bang in a fast time, emerge several seconds down the road leaving the other bewildered driver to blame his team for pitting too early.... Discuss.

The Ferraris were just faster full stop.

Both Alonso and Massa were able to hound Lewis whenever they felt the need.

As much as people like to say the Ferrari is a dog, the fact that both Ferraris qualified right next to each other while Lewis was clearly not on top and Button was absolutely nowhere shows that the Ferraris just had the pace and the McLarens were struggling.

I could see it right after Q3 ended and I called it on page 33 that Lewis would be under pressure from everyone behind him. If Grosjean didn't crash out, he, Schumacher and the Ferraris would all be there trying their luck. Then there was Vettel on his alternative strategy.

[McMrocks]

Edit: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... gp=869&p=2

Ham was really only 0.5 sec slower in the pit

But u have to know that the gap before the pit was not that big:
gap in lap 28: 0.144
look here

lewis struggeled with the pirelli tyres.

The half second faster stop of Ferrari helped Alonso going on top. But i think Alonso did a great job.

Two weeks earlier: New tyres were faster than warm old tyres
Monaco: New cold tyres were slower than warm old tyres.
I guess nobody understands the Pirelli tyres.

It is just frustrating for a McLaren fan but thats sports. I think it will be not a season like 2009. And i think the 4-27 is better in fast corners. So lets look forward