Alternative to Canopies/Windscreens/Front Roll Hoops

[raymondu999]

I think it's more for the lost allure of open-cockpit racing, no? I'm not sure the reduced drag will really be a concern as such. If they're concerned of competitive advantages for a team, then introduce a spec canopy.

[bhall]

I posted the following in the new videos thread. But, I think it belongs here, too.

Conor Daly's ride in Monaco.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXszF6m_ew8[/youtube]

The tire bouncing around is the part that troubles me the most.

[myurr]

The tire bouncing around is the part that troubles me the most.

Given the damage to that car I struggle to see any tethering system working well enough to keep the wheel with the car but away from the driver. In this instance the severed wheel was above the catch fencing with the fence cutting its way through the suspension and tether.

I also didn't really see the wheel bounce around that much or with that much energy. Once it came back down it kinda just rolled down the hill a bit, so I'm not sure even the idea to deflate the tyre would have helped that much. I don't think a canopy would have helped either as the biggest risk here was another driver running into the tyre with the front of their car and losing control, like Alonso in Brazil 2003.

This is motor racing and sometimes freak accidents will happen.

[bhall]

The following is a freeze frame from the accident. The point in time depicted is about as close as my clumsy hands can get to the moment when the tire [highlighted] first bounced. It landed at the point I've marked with a yellow dot while the nearest car passed by a point marked with the red dot.


(Click to enlarge)

@myurr
I absolutely agree that some situations in racing, due to its very nature, will be unavoidable. But, having seen the way wheel tethers are secured to F1 cars - not exactly robust - I can't imagine that GP3, or any other lower formula, has better standards. At the very least, I think these connections should be made to be much more secure.

It's not just drivers who are in danger. That wheel could have easily struck a corner marshal here.

[myurr]

@myurr
I absolutely agree that some situations in racing, due to its very nature, will be unavoidable. But, having seen the way wheel tethers are secured to F1 cars - not exactly robust - I can't imagine that GP3, or any other lower formula, has better standards. At the very least, I think these connections should be made to be much more secure.

It's not just drivers who are in danger. That wheel could have easily struck a corner marshal here.

But the tether wouldn't have helped in this situation. As you can see the wheel was on the other side of the catch fence - either you make the tether and everything its attached to stronger than the fence, or you weaken the fence. I don't think either is a good solution.

Watching the video again I also watched the wheel more closely, the point at which it hit the ground was behind where the other car was. Another driver then actually crashed into it which sent it rolling down the road. A canopy may have been an advantage for a very precise position for the wheel in time and space, but ultimately wouldn't have made much difference in this incident.

[ESPImperium]

No canope or roll hoop will stop a bouncing wheel let alone debris of any sort for any incident.

This has just strengthened my view.

However when it comes to tethers, im sure there can be something done, however if there is a freak incident or enough energy the tethers will shatter and come loose from their anchors.

How much engineering you throw at something, if something is going to come loose or if something is going to happen it will. Its part of freaking racing.

On the tickets or F1 races it says, Motorsport can be Dangerous, and it says that for a reason.

[bhall]

I only pointed out the initial bounce to show proximity. I missed the part where another car struck it on the rebound.

I'm not necessarily of the mind that canopies or anything of the sort should be mandated on open-cockpit cars. But, I see no reason why wheel tethers should not be made more robust. The technology exists to do so easily.

Kevlar has a tensile strength of about 52,000 psi. Tether failures almost always seem to be the result of the tether being ripped from its anchor(s), which in most cases is little more than two or three tiny Ti screws, rather than being ripped apart itself. I think the anchors should be integrated into both the chassis and the uprights, instead of being superfluously tacked on.

[wrcsti]

Here's another option:-

In this a "slanted forward" carbon fibre hoop runs in front of the driver's fore head. The hoop would stop large heavy objects (like wheels) hitting the driver's helmet, without obscuring his view. The hoop could also incorporate the side head protection currently built into the pop out collar. A screen could be built between the hoop and collar to protect against small flying debris. The whole screen and hoop would hinge from its forward edge and out of the way to let the driver out. The top of the driver's helmet would still be "open" so you can see who is who. The hoop would also be a convenient place to mount a forward facing TV camera.

Problem with this design is if it ends resting upsidedown there is no way for the driver to exit.

[flynfrog]

Roulette element of the pitstops with explosively deflating tires can be solved by placing the break-away detonator in the uprights (the bit that has the brakes attached to it) the explosive will only trigger when that component separates from the chassis. Of course that means if a wheel is not attached properly (in a pitstop) and falls of it will not deflate. Maybe a remote secondary detonator is required in the cockpit for use in such a situation.

Can the tire still reach the drivers head like how senna was killed without the tethers failing?

you must be mad. We had explosively severed chutes on test planes. When not in the air they have to be stored in an armored cabinet and must be treated as a live ordnance. It would be a pretty dumb idea to add a potential explosive element to a crash. what if a wheel is severed during contact with another car right next to the driver?

[myurr]

you must be mad. We had explosively severed chutes on test planes. When not in the air they have to be stored in an armored cabinet and must be treated as a live ordnance. It would be a pretty dumb idea to add a potential explosive element to a crash. what if a wheel is severed during contact with another car right next to the driver?

Would it not be possible to use a shaped charge directed into the inside of the rim, firing directly into a specifically designed weak point?

There must be some way to enable the tyre to rapidly deflate in the event that it becomes detached from the car.

Edit: Don't forget that airbags are also explosive devices and yet they are carried in pretty much every production car including being directly in front of the drivers head next to their hands. Explosives are dangerous but can be used to improve safety.

[myurr]

I only pointed out the initial bounce to show proximity. I missed the part where another car struck it on the rebound.

I'm not necessarily of the mind that canopies or anything of the sort should be mandated on open-cockpit cars. But, I see no reason why wheel tethers should not be made more robust. The technology exists to do so easily.

Kevlar has a tensile strength of about 52,000 psi. Tether failures almost always seem to be the result of the tether being ripped from its anchor(s), which in most cases is little more than two or three tiny Ti screws, rather than being ripped apart itself. I think the anchors should be integrated into both the chassis and the uprights, instead of being superfluously tacked on.

The problem in this case was that the wheel ended up on one side of the catch fencing, the car on the other. In order for the tether to have then dragged the wheel back through the fence, it would need to be stronger than the fence itself, be strong enough to rip the wheel back up and over the fence, or to hang the entire weight of the car over the top of the fence whilst absorbing all the energy and momentum of the car. In this specific instance I'm not sure that any of those situations are desirable or practical.

[flynfrog]

you must be mad. We had explosively severed chutes on test planes. When not in the air they have to be stored in an armored cabinet and must be treated as a live ordnance. It would be a pretty dumb idea to add a potential explosive element to a crash. what if a wheel is severed during contact with another car right next to the driver?

Would it not be possible to use a shaped charge directed into the inside of the rim, firing directly into a specifically designed weak point?

There must be some way to enable the tyre to rapidly deflate in the event that it becomes detached from the car.

Edit: Don't forget that airbags are also explosive devices and yet they are carried in pretty much every production car including being directly in front of the drivers head next to their hands. Explosives are dangerous but can be used to improve safety.

an air bag is much a much smaller charge than it would take to sever a wheel. Im sure you could come up with some sort of shape charge but you are still running a pack of cars of cars at high speeds with bombs on each wheel. A dump valve would be a much better plan.

[MIKEY_!]

We are not talking about a big explosive here, the explosive would probably be no larger than .22 rifle cartridge, just enough to puncture the tire, we only need a tiny hole to deflate the tire. Imbedded in the magnesium rim and aimed into the base of the sidewall so that any debris would project towards the tub it couldn't harm anyone unless they had their hand over the exit area.

[ATC]

Perhaps we could be moving towards something like this afterall:

(Rendering by iacoski - http://www.iacoski.com)

[Agerasia]

Instead of the tyres being tightly tethered I think they should be on an inertia system.
Intiatialy they can break off for a set length, say 20cm, then an inertia system takes over rapidly absorbing any energy beyond the 20cm length.
A tyre tightly tethered compared to one on inertia is probably more likely to come free as it's only as strong as the tether/tether point.