This thread will probably be over in a couple of pages and I'm sure it's been discussed but cant place my finger on where. I was wondering if it would be of any feasible use to set the car up for example on an clockwise circuit with the right springs slightly softer than the left for riding the kerbs? I'm probably talking BS, and I think the big drawback would be that the car would be unlevel on the straights, which would horribly mess up aero, braking, accel, etc? Was thinking about NASCAR (I think they use asymmetric setups on ovals?) and if any of this could be transferred to f1?
Last edited by Steven on 12 Jun 2012, 12:26, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Edited title and moved from "general chat" to chassis subforum
NASCAR setups have more asymmetry than you can shake a stick at. Things that you wouldn't even think COULD be asymmetric, are asymmetric.
As for road racing, depends on the track, the series, the engineer philosophy. Go to a place like Lime Rock Park and yeah, asymmetry is probably pretty obvious. Other places.. it depends. If you know what you're doing then sure maybe you get a little more performance out of a critical corner. If you don't know what you're doing, you probably end up dicking around in minutiae with little gain or even a loss, while passing up on more obvious "low hanging fruit."
I'll say that with pretty good certainty, there has been some flavor of asymmetry in F1 for decades.
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When testing a vehicle on a rig, I generate a number that is a measure of the dynamic asymmetry of the vehicle & it's suspension. I pay attention to that number, mostly because it is usually a signature if a faulty set-up. I have seen an asymmetric F1 vehicle only once in over ten years of testing. There is a humorous story about that which I can't relate here (but it was a mistake).
I should add that I don't necessarily see a race-prepared vehicle, of course, but I do often see what is posted as actual race set-ups. They are symmetrical too.
Recognising JT's comment, I have in the past rig tested both CHAMP & Indy cars in road course trim. They are often asymmetric. I argue the case for symmetry, but I think race engineers in the USA are so used to oval set-up's that they think nothing of it. As it happens, I have also proved my point on one occasion.
I recall reading that when J Villeneuve came to F1 with Williams in 96, he used asymmetric setups occasionally following his experience with them in indycar. One particular example was at Estoril due to the long right hand parabolica leading onto the straight.
ajdavison, Do you mean a physical assymetry such as unequal wishbone lengths right to left, or do you mean different spring/damper rates right to left?
It was more a question of general set up, camber, springs, dampers etc.. but for the entirety for the right hand side to be able to turn into and ride a kerb better than the left on a clockwise circuit.. as you can tell I have no motorsport technical knowledge :L.. just general musings that go on in my head
Certain tracks have important corners (before or after long straights, good passing zones) that can benefit lap time more than the other corners, and these are good candidates for asymmetry. Static camber settings are probably adjusted in response to tire temp/wear or to help balance in certain directions. Using asymmetric linkages/bellcranks can allow the vehicle to be effectively symmetric only in certain conditions (high-speed/DF, for example). Personally, I would be very surprised if the teams didn't allow for this simply to better control tire wear and temperature.
I think, it will boil down to your definition of "asymmetric".
If you see camber as part of the setup, then I would say running "symmetric" would be the exemption rather then the rule.
Now, I can´t speak with any autority about F1 setups, but in other roadcourse (normal race tracks) based series, camber angles are seldome equal left to right IMO.
You could argue, as vertical tyre stiffness changes with camber, that this has some implications in terms of vertical ride rates, defacto making the car "asymmetric" as well.
I my field it´s rare to see, different spring/damper rates left to right - but not unheared off.
Same goes for unequal wishbone length, and motion ratios (the former is banned in my case).
Ride height differences left to right, and unequal corner weights are pretty common, mainly in cars which have the
CoG offsetted to one side.
This is a smaller issue in F1 or most other single seater cars, with a rather symmetric layout/weight distribution.
Different tyre pressures left to right, front to rear, are pretty common, and also effect effective "ride rates".
preloaded/twisted ARB/sway bars are somtimes used to increase performance in one direction/ one particular corner on a track, same goes for corner weights.
on cars which use a "live rear axle" ( not F1 ), you may see some asymmetries, to offset "torque reactions" from the engine.
bumsteer/roll steer is sometimes used "asymmetrical" to aid vehicle performance at different parts of the track
Jersey Tom wrote:NASCAR setups have more asymmetry than you can shake a stick at. Things that you wouldn't even think COULD be asymmetric, are asymmetric.
Nascars have a crazy asymmetrical setup. First time I saw one this year in Daytona it looked like it had already been in a crash.
Assymetrical camber settings are quite common in many categories. The direction of the track is usualy the main factor but for example if you have lots of fast left handers you would want to favour the right hand side even if the track is clockwise.
I have tested asymetric setups with different vehicles on a track that has 4 right constant ratio fast curves, 1 left slow curve and a couple of "S" curves (not chicanes).
Never got decent results, and the only asymetry that worked was cold tyre pressures to get... symetrical hot tyre pressures.
The main problem I recall was braking instability and in the transient nature of the fast "S" curves.
Then there was one of those stories that someone tells you that someone told him that once upon a time, there was a dominant car in that same track with a 80mm differece in wheelbase... but I wont eat that.
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