Diesel Fumes Cause Cancer

[sAx]

Actually it is the chemical constituents in both the Diesel Fuel fumes and the combustion products in the exhaust that may be carcinogenic.. ...

Diesel engines particularly the modern common rail injection variety tend to emit very low levels of hydrocarbons, but high thermal NOx and Particulates. The NOx in reaction with sunlight (UV), has long been linked with with photo chemical smog production which at best can be an extreme respiratory irritant.

It is likely to be the sub 10µm (PM10) particles that the lung is particularly inefficient at removing, that will pose the cancerous health risk. And as more of us switch to diesel power the problem will get worse and hence the reason why local AQ assessments in the UK, have set new exposure regimes at 2.5µm (PM2.5). So diesels link as a probable human carcinogen has been known for quite a while, as well as the other xenobiotics we produce and and consume every time we fire up the BBQ.

[Tommy Cookers]

I'm with Strad on this one !!

The car diesel springs from the traditional subsidy of such fuel in some countries on the mainland of Europe. Their oil inustries were too mean and lazy to gear their production to petrol/gasoline (unlike UK and USA), so for decades they had a surplus of diesel to be dumped. The politics helped with a tax bias for diesel.

So diesel vs petrol has become a political football.
The man in the street should not have to decide or be persuaded on the right type of car fuel.

The WHO doesn't distinguish between indirect injection (car) diesels and direct injection (truck/van) diesels.
DI produces lots of particulates, which carry the carcinogens into our lungs. II doesn't (unless faulty), (it has 2 attempts at combustion but is less efficient).
Maybe 5% of both types are faulty in service.

In the UK the diesel was pumped by one party, they (in government) looked stupid when the particulates were proved to cause respiration problems in children.
Similarly the octane boost (benzene etc) to replace lead in petrol/gasoline in Europe was wrong.
The whole NOx thing was wrongly treated by politics for 20-40 years, only now has the industry stopped the damage (fuel wastage/CO2).

Anyway this WHO position sounds good to me !

Is this the same WHO that said more than 50 ppm of nitrate in drinking water was bad ?
Now athletes drink vacuum-concentated beetroot juice for the (legal) nitrate. It's the same stuff.

Almost all cancers are a part of normal ageing, and are not significantly influencable by following the health preachers. The two lifetime healthiest eaters I ever knew died like that.
Cancer is not an economic burden to society, curing it would be.

Is it only me who is woken early on a Monday by the startup of a diesel car, and never by petrol cars ?

[Pup]

Almost all cancers are a part of normal ageing, and are not significantly influencable by following the health preachers. The two lifetime healthiest eaters I ever knew died like that.

Healthy eaters in what way?

[ESPImperium]

Ive worked in a petrol station full time for the past 4 years now and have been petrol strained at the place i work for near on 7 now. Im screwed on that scaremongering.

On that evedence im a walking talking cancer sufferer as i have personally unloaded from a tanker more diesel than most folks will unload from a pump in their lifetime.

Wonder if the WHO based it off evedence found in The Daily Mail and The Daily Express newspapers.

[Tommy Cookers]

The NOx in reaction with sunlight (UV), has long been linked with with photo chemical smog production which at best can be an extreme respiratory irritant.

Thanks for the information, sincerely.

Isn't the atmosphere much the largest NOx factory in the world, and totally unregulated ? Doesn't it produce at least ten times as much NOx (hence Nitrate) as the whole of mankind ?
Chrysler argued along these lines in their action at the US Supreme Court in the 60s ?
Now the fashion is to knock fertiliser for Reactive Nitrogen effects (as if RN was essentially man-made, not natural).

No doubt some of those driving the politics are sincere in their beliefs, does that make those beliefs right ?
Politics (in part) works by generating feelings of fear and guilt in the populus.

These are genuine questions re NOx, I have never got convincing answers to them.

The private car never produced much NOx in normal use, IMO the official tests were deliberately rigged.
NOx comes from hot, hard running.

IMO the diesel lovers seem to be doom-and-gloom types in other areas, so this news is particularly interesting.

[Jon]

Wow.

Just the kind of intelligent discussion I expected on this, THE technical forum.

Sigh...I'm surprised no one said "YOLO"...

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Thanks for letting us know Strad.

[gridwalker]

NOx in itself isn't so much of a problem, but where the NOx is concentrated.

The interaction of vehicle NOx emissions and sunlight produces low level Ozone, which is actually toxic at ground level. If this Ozone was concentrated in the upper atmosphere then we would be hailing it as the solution to one of the greatest environmental problems of the late 80s/early 90s.

As it stands, it is just another hazard to human health.

[munks]

As someone whose dad died recently from asbestos exposure (which was 30+ years ago), I think it's a bit flippant to completely dismiss carcinogens and their long-term effects. But certainly, some are far worse than others, and most depend significantly on the dosage. You can't worry about everything, but you can't worry about nothing, either.

[Tommy Cookers]

NOx in itself isn't so much of a problem, but where the NOx is concentrated.

The interaction of vehicle NOx emissions and sunlight produces low level Ozone, which is actually toxic at ground level. If this Ozone was concentrated in the upper atmosphere then we would be hailing it as the solution to one of the greatest environmental problems of the late 80s/early 90s.

As it stands, it is just another hazard to human health.

My point was that almost all NOx is natural (and 'concentrates' at ground level as does the atmosphere, via self-weight compression). The highest Ozone levels are indoors, around photocopiers, high-voltage sources etc ?

Legally mandated accounting of atmospheric pollution ignores anything outside urban areas, unless wind drives such into the urban area, when it mysteriously becomes counted at an additional 15% of the existing urban value.

In the doom-and-gloom time that followed the first 'energy crisis' of 1975, I saw a regional TV weatherman showing pictures of photochemical smog in that region of the UK countryside, and explaining it as driven largely by emissions of vapour from oilseed rape crops.

Then he lost his job.

We now grow more oilseed, largely for biodiesel, but the oil vapour officially doesn't exist until it comes out of a tailpipe !

[strad]

You can't worry about everything, but you can't worry about nothing, either

Very true...It's not like I'm gonna quit my job, but I would like people to be smart enough to recognize the danger.
I think diesel is a huge danger that doesn't need to be out there.

[Dragonfly]

How about kerosene burnt by all jet and turboprop airplanes?

[strad]

Quite right Dragonfly...The amount of air traffic is phenomenal. I wish people could see what the trail of smog behind a cargo ship..They burn Bunker Fuel/Oil...The dregs off the bottom of the tanks..so thick it has to be heated to pump it, smells bad enough to make ya puke and to get it to burn they have to add "combustion enhancers" that are labeled carcinogenic. The plume when they are underway is so thick it looks like they are on fire or something and stretches for miles behind them. I do not consider myself an ecology guy in any way, but damn, some things are so obviously not correct.
Just beware that when you buy that in-line diesel six you're putting you and yours and all around you at risk. Is it worth it? Only you can judge, but take my hypothetical; If you buy said car, have a child and when she turns 17 is diagnosed with lung cancer. Will you be so happy and cavalier about your purchase?
Rant over. I was just sharing something I thought pertinent. As for why I didn't post the whole article, it wasn't because of some agenda, but rather because it's fairly long and I Clipped what I thought was pertinent..In retrospect I should have included a link to the story.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/sto ... 55579410/1

[Dragonfly]

If we take on that path, then I think everything can be summed up just by saying: "Living is lethal".

[Tommy Cookers]

Quite right Dragonfly...The amount of air traffic is phenomenal. I wish people could see what the trail of smog behind a cargo ship..They burn Bunker Fuel/Oil...The dregs off the bottom of the tanks..so thick it has to be heated to pump it, smells bad enough to make ya puke and to get it to burn they have to add "combustion enhancers" that are labeled carcinogenic. The plume when they are underway is so thick it looks like they are on fire or something and stretches for miles behind them.

Bunker Fuel was for steam ships (and power stations), where it could be burnt properly (in a furnace), for long enough and with lots of surplus air.
The 70s 'energy crisis' resulted in marine Diesels being modded to withstand the use of BF, so now we have it burnt improperly, on a vast scale.
Finally 'they' are legislating about this on a local basis, eg Europe, so that the pollution will be over the oceans only.


Those of us in our 60s have about 25% chance of dying from natural-sourced cancers. Man-made cancers are much rarer (except for smoking).

I just don't like diesels in cars, but we are apparently entering the age of engines that combine the best of diesel and spark ignition characteristics, via the support of the FIA's 2014 F1 engine rules.

Interesting times !

[zonk]

What about the FAP & DOC?