2012 European GP - Valencia

[myurr]

Do we know that Pirelli allocate tyres to drivers or teams or if that is under control of the FIA? I'd hope it was the latter...

[bhall]

I have no idea how it works, but it's a bit immaterial in this context.

Pirelli wouldn't have to give special tires to a specific driver/team; they'd just use the data they have from all teams to provide a tire to the field that would nonetheless tend to favor a specific driver/team. The inverse is also true.

As I said before, I don't think this is actually happening. It's also not a guarantee for success, but it 's probably the most Pirelli could do without raising red flags.

[myurr]

Totally agree that it's not happening - was just hoping someone would know if the FIA allocates the tyres which would then make it that much more implausible as it would require the collusion of two organisations.

I also believe that the compounds and certainly the constructions are set for the year before the start of the season and will only be changed in exceptional circumstances and, I believe, only after testing the new compounds by giving some teams access and then sharing the data across all teams. So even mid-season fine tuning to suit one car or another is incredibly unlikely.

[Mandrake]

Mhhh guys, are you actually serious about this? Don't we have more important stuff to talk about? Or at least something that is not pure speculation?

I highly doubt we're seeing Pirelli influencing the results for specific drivers! I also doubt that MGP for instance are sabotating MSC on purpose.....sometimes there is just about as much bad luck. The defective DRS was blocked mechanically, not hydraulicly, hard to "fake" I'd say.

I'm sure Hembrey was just looking at recent results on similar tracks with the tire data in mind and guessed that MGP and MSC could do well. Nothing more. Period.

[myurr]

Later reports actually suggest it was a hydraulic failure rather than the mechanism jamming, as you can see when they're leaning on the wing trying to close it that it is still supported at both ends rather than one side being jammed.

[bhall]

Totally agree that it's not happening - was just hoping someone would know if the FIA allocates the tyres which would then make it that much more implausible as it would require the collusion of two organisations.

[...]

The notion is predicated on Pirelli doing something illegal. So, I think the FIA would be the last to know. Given the teams' relative lack of understanding of the tires thus far, it's unlikely anyone would even notice such changes. But, if someone did start asking questions, Pirelli could claim natural variation. It doesn't take much.

Again, these scenarios are highly unlikely.

Just to finish this off with an on-topic bow, these are all reasons why Hembery should probably abstain from making public predictions such as the one he made for this race. Pirelli and F1 have nothing to gain from them, but they risk creating the impression of impropriety, and who the hell wants more of that?

[Gridlock]

Pirelli could claim natural variation

While I agree they could (and even suggested so previously), it would be far-fetched when the tyres are 100% manmade compounds. It would suggest they can't control their own manufacturing processes and therefore I doubt very much they would consider it.

Eddie Jordan was convinced last year that the compounds had changed through the year for corporate reasons, no matter what Pirelli said, and given the one tyre this year is supposed to be identical to one of last years (the medium became the hard iirc?) other than the slight profile change at the shoulder I tend to agree. How can one of this year's tyres be the same as one of last years and yet not one single team understands it?

Tyres not race, I know, but this is Valencia and I can't think of anything nice to say.

[bhall]

I wanted to give credit for the "natural variation" idea. I just couldn't remember who said it.

Anyway, how could Pirelli's manufacturing processes be called into question in this scenario? Every team would receive identical tires, as usual, but the specification of those tires would be based upon, and optimized for, the tire data from the favored team/driver. That favored team could be different every race, because no one understands the tires that well. Any changes in performance would likely be seen as ordinary.

The implied natural variance would be from race to race, not from team to team.

(I'd take this to another thread, but the tire threads are dangerous, and I'm not sure a new thread called "A Guide to Tire Cheating" would be appreciated.)

[Chuckjr]

May I kindly ask to discuss the European GP instead of ranting on about how Pirelli have or have not made this season a lottery? This has been discussed tirelessly and it seems nobody is going to change opinion anyway...

Anyway, my bet for Valencia is Alonso, if only for his home crowd to finally see their man flourish there. Furthermore, Ferrari have announced they will have yet another upgrade package on their car, and if it proves as efficient as the last updates, it could well help the Spaniard achieving his goal.

I'm not sure what McLaren will do for Button though, I'm unaware of any major car updates or changes for them, so it could be another struggle for the Brit.

+1

This tire discussion has the same virus as the Ferrari front pull rod suspension did.

[bhall]

But, this tire discussion is in no way serious. No one thinks these things are happening. We're just discussing it.

[myurr]

Eddie Jordan was convinced last year that the compounds had changed through the year for corporate reasons, no matter what Pirelli said, and given the one tyre this year is supposed to be identical to one of last years (the medium became the hard iirc?) other than the slight profile change at the shoulder I tend to agree. How can one of this year's tyres be the same as one of last years and yet not one single team understands it?

Eddie Jordan isn't exactly the fount of all knowledge when it comes to anything technical though. You had all the teams on the grid with multi-million pound budgets chasing every last hundredth of a second of performance throwing their resources at understanding the tyres and optimising the suspension layouts, warm up procedures, target lap times they drive to, etc. Naturally they're going to get on top of the tyres sooner or later.

This year the construction change is more significant than just a small profile change and has ended up fundamentally changing the characteristics of the tyre. Pirelli have stated that the teams do know what they need to do to make the tyres work, it's just difficult to achieve so it's taking them a while to figure out how to do it consistently. We've already seen a pecking order start to appear, and whilst the field is close enough for small variations to have a significant effect we're talking about cars fluctuating in pace by a few tenths rather than seconds. This has always been the case it's just much more noticeable when the field is as close as it is.

[waynes]

Eddie Jordan is a prime example of a person who speaks before thinking, however this is overlooked as he's "good tv"

sorry but no. i'd rather listen to Martin Brundle talk technicalities in the sport than this chancer spouting off

[Forza]

Do we know that Pirelli allocate tyres to drivers or teams or if that is under control of the FIA? I'd hope it was the latter...

FIA allocates tyres

Code: Select all

F1 - Pirelli: Cracking the barcode
1800 tyres to each grand prix

In the first of a series of features, we look at how tyres are made and distributed to the Formula One teams…

Pirelli brings around 1800 tyres to each grand prix, but the destiny of these tyres is mapped out long before they arrive at the circuit. The tyres for each race are made in a specific production run before the grand prix.

They are manufactured at Pirelli’s state of the art motorsport facility in Izmit, just outside the Turkish capital of Istanbul. During the production process, each tyre is allocated a barcode provided by the FIA (the sport’s governing body). This barcode is the tyre’s ‘passport’, which is embedded firmly into the structure during the vulcanisation process and cannot be swapped. The code contains all the details of each tyre, making it traceable throughout the race weekend with Pirelli’s RTS (Racing Tyre System) software, which can read and update all the data.

For European grands prix, the tyres are then transported to Pirelli’s logistics and distribution hub at Didcot in the United Kingdom. Once they arrive there, an FIA official receives a list of bar codes, which relate to the tyres that will be taken to the next grand prix. The FIA (the sport’s governing body) then allocates bar codes – and therefore tyres – to each individual teams at random. Pirelli itself is not involved in this process at all, meaning that the Italian firm cannot influence which tyres are allocated to which teams – although a rigorous quality control process in Izmit ensures that all the tyres leaving the factory are identical.

Once at the circuit, the tyres are then allocated to the teams in strict compliance with the list that has been previously prepared by the FIA. The bar codes allow both the FIA and Pirelli to ensure that the right teams, according to the regulations, are using the correct tyres.

Each team is allocated a Pirelli engineer, who works exclusively with that team for all of the year, but the database that every engineer works off allows the engineer to see only information relating specifically to his or her team over the weekend, so that individual strategies are not compromised. Development data is overseen by Pirelli’s senior engineers, who monitor all the information in order to assist the research team in charge of shaping the next generation of tyres.

As Pirelli’s motorsport director Paul Hembery points out: “Even if we wanted to – which we certainly don’t – there is no way that we could influence which tyres are being allocated to which teams, as this is a job taken care of entirely by the FIA once the tyres have left the Izmit factory. It is just another way that impartiality can be ensured among all the teams, which is a huge priority for us as exclusive tyre supplier. The way that our team engineers work also respects this confidentiality, which is always of paramount importance.”

COUNTDOWN TO A GRAND PRIX

Before the grand prix:

Pirelli, with the approval from the FIA, selects the tyres for the race – a softer compound plus a harder compound.

Production of the tyre allocation begins at the Izmit factory in Turkey. We supply approximately 1800 Formula One tyres for each race; about 700 more if the race is a GP2 round as well as 600 for GP3.

Two weeks before the grand prix:

For European events the tyres for the race are transported by road from Izmit to Didcot: a journey of approximately 3100 kilometres that takes three days.

The tyres arrive at the Didcot facility and have their bar codes scanned into Pirelli’s system. The FIA (the governing body of world motorsport) is then notified of the bar codes.

At random, the FIA allocates certain barcodes to each team. The allocated tyres are then sorted out by team in Didcot and loaded into seven trucks for transportation to the grand prix (four trucks for F1, three trucks for GP2 and GP3).

One week before the grand prix:

The trucks set off from Didcot for the race, normally arriving on the Monday before the race takes place. The 18 fitters set up the fitting area and the barcodes are confirmed again with the FIA.

Five days before the grand prix:

The fitters start fitting tyres onto the rims. It takes an experienced fitter 2.5 minutes to fit one tyre from start to finish: for all the tyres of the weekend they need two days. The teams own the wheels: they are brought to Pirelli at the circuit for the tyres to be fitted onto them.

During the grand prix weekend:

The sporting regulations determine that one set of the harder dry tyre must be returned after the first practice session, with one set of the softer and one set of the harder compound to be returned before the start of the third practice session. A further set of softer and one of the harder compound must be returned before the start of qualifying. This means that each driver has six sets of the dry compounds (three of each specification) available for qualifying and the race.

Tyres that are returned get taken off their rims, as they won’t be used anymore, with the rims being returned to the teams.

After the grand prix:

All remaining tyres, both used and unused, are taken off their rims and then transported back to Didcot. When they arrive, the tyres are taken to a specialised plant where they are shredded and then burned at very high temperature in order to produce fuel for cement factories. The material produced in this process can also be used for road surfaces and other industrial applications.

Link

[raymondu999]

From a tyre science point of view, actually, what CAN the FIA do? I mean, I'd imagine they can stick a spindly ruler into the wear-measurement holes and find the same amount of tread. Sure. But how can the FIA ensure that it's the same compound, short of taking a sample of rubber from each tyre and playing with it? Honest question as I know nothing about this.

I'd have thought it wouldn't be difficult to get enough rubber to run some testing on. Given that the sample sizes for the kind of thermal-analytical testing that you need are usually measured in tens of mg's, even a few pieces of molding flash would probably suffice to get a good analysis of the properties and composition.

FIA can so some sort of scientific analysis I think. Or FIA could just randomly mix the tyres up before they assign them to teams. I think that ensures that any "winning" tyres get spread around like Dominoes. I don't know if they do that though, but they should.

Yes but that's the whole issue though. You can't test a given sample because, if the conspiracy theorists are correct in that Pirelli are giving different people better tyres in terms of pace and longevity, then you obviously have to test the rubber of each tyre, and you have to know for sure that the compound sample is identical to the one on each tyre. I DON'T think this is happening, mind you.

In any case, let's move discussion back to the race.

[bhall]

For clarity's sake, I'd just like to reiterate that no one necessarily thinks Pirelli is engaged in any sort of underhanded activities. So, it's not a conspiracy theory, per se. It's just a discussion brought on by Paul Hembery's (unfortunate) prediction for this race.

And, Ray, under the given scenario, testing every tire at any given grand prix wouldn't uncover anything at all. One would have to test every tire given to every team over the course of the entire season. The trick is not to give any particular team/driver "special" tires at any given race; the trick is to give every team identical tires that just so happen to work for one team/driver better than they'll work for others at that particular race. This is possible given Pirelli's mountain of tire data for each team/driver. Once again, though, it's highly unlikely that this is really happening.

Incidentally, this is what happens when an ill-advised comment meets a ridiculously boring circuit. It's a perfect storm-type discussion.