2012 European GP - Valencia

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Redragon
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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myurr wrote:
zeph wrote:Of course Hamilton is not without blame. He could have avoided that situation. But Maldonado was too hot-headed. He could have and would he gotten past Hamilton if he had kept his cool. I'd be inclined to dismiss it as a racing incident, but I feel the penalty is just and fair.
He could only have avoided the situation by backing out of the fight completely and simply letting Maldonado past. Once you start doing that you're giving a green light to all the drivers to just dive up the inside expecting you to get out of the way. You cannot do that and expect to be a top racing driver and long term you increase the risk of collision as drivers get more and more ambitious in passing you expecting you to be the one to back out of it.

Well, if I recall well it is what Hamilton was expecting last year. I think both drivers had to be blame in this case. Also, they have damaged themsels to score good points

GrizzleBoy
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Redragon wrote:
myurr wrote:
zeph wrote:Of course Hamilton is not without blame. He could have avoided that situation. But Maldonado was too hot-headed. He could have and would he gotten past Hamilton if he had kept his cool. I'd be inclined to dismiss it as a racing incident, but I feel the penalty is just and fair.
He could only have avoided the situation by backing out of the fight completely and simply letting Maldonado past. Once you start doing that you're giving a green light to all the drivers to just dive up the inside expecting you to get out of the way. You cannot do that and expect to be a top racing driver and long term you increase the risk of collision as drivers get more and more ambitious in passing you expecting you to be the one to back out of it.

Well, if I recall well it is what Hamilton was expecting last year. I think both drivers had to be blame in this case. Also, they have damaged themsels to score good points
All Lewis did was defend his position and he actually won the racing line back through the corner. Maldonado wasn't even on track, yet you feel he might have had a right of way??

Speedster
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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I've watched the Sky analysis since my comment last night and they showed quite clearly, with statements from Webber to support, that Maldonado didn't have steering on the kerb. He should have probably known this, but he was steering left all the way and his car just went straight on, into the side of Lewis. I do think it's still Maldonado's fault, as he should be careful joining the track again, but it wasn't deliberately pushing someone away to get position like I thought it was.

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raymondu999
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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f1316 wrote:What is also interesting is that there may be a form of strategy which allows a driver to somewhat avoid the "tip-toeing" some have complained about. Because the cars are *so* far off the qualifying pace in the race - something like 7 seconds per lap at the start of the race - there could be an argument that the non-optimal strategy allows the driver to push so much harder so as to counteract the amount you lose in additional stops throughout the, let's say, four stints. In a sixty lap race, it only takes lapping an average of .333 of a second faster per lap to make up the extra 20 seconds which is roughly average for a pit stop. This is by no means a fact-based comment, but from the purely anecdotal evidence of driver comments, I would estimate that they are losing significantly more per lap by having to conserve.

Not only this, but it allows those drivers who are better at pushing the car to its limits to push for the full race, whilst still giving those drivers (and cars) that are better at conserving to conserve. Purely psychologically, I can imagine certain drivers benefitting from this more agressive strategy - qualifying position and overtaking possibilities allowing.
It does bring up a good question, and one I've wondered since Schumacher went out with the "you push 80%" and "raw eggs" comments. if it really was as bad as pushing 80% over 3 stints (I think closer to the 2012 average) I would suspect you could do 4 stints pushing at considerably closer to the limit, especially at overtake-friendly circuits. I mean, just take a look at Hamilton in Canada.
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myurr
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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f1316 wrote:It may sound an obvious comment, but I think what is becoming particularly clear this year is that it's imperative to be on good tyres at the end of the race. Apart from in Monaco, where I suspect it would have been OK, track position does you little good because you're not able to defend once your tyres reach a certain age.

What is also interesting is that there may be a form of strategy which allows a driver to somewhat avoid the "tip-toeing" some have complained about. Because the cars are *so* far off the qualifying pace in the race - something like 7 seconds per lap at the start of the race - there could be an argument that the non-optimal strategy allows the driver to push so much harder so as to counteract the amount you lose in additional stops throughout the, let's say, four stints. In a sixty lap race, it only takes lapping an average of .333 of a second faster per lap to make up the extra 20 seconds which is roughly average for a pit stop. This is by no means a fact-based comment, but from the purely anecdotal evidence of driver comments, I would estimate that they are losing significantly more per lap by having to conserve.

Not only this, but it allows those drivers who are better at pushing the car to its limits to push for the full race, whilst still giving those drivers (and cars) that are better at conserving to conserve. Purely psychologically, I can imagine certain drivers benefitting from this more agressive strategy - qualifying position and overtaking possibilities allowing.
That is an interesting observation, and it should be noted that Pirelli were aiming to make two different strategies viable so in this respect they are succeeding. The logical extension of this is that we may see teams placing more emphasis on straight line speed in an effort to be able to maximise their end of race pace. This would suggest that cars that are good in a straight line, like the Mercedes and McLaren, could end up having an advantage if this kind of strategy plays out more frequently.

With the high speed corners putting huge loads through the tyres I would imagine Silverstone to be a three stop race again, possibly even four. This should again help those drivers that prefer to attack as at worst they're only going to burn through the tyres a couple of laps more quickly than those trying to conserve their tyres.

We could also see a split in strategy at Red Bull, with Vettel trying to be quick enough whilst managing his tyres and Webber going on a more aggressive strategy.

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Was a decent race. Glad that Alonso won at home. Always nice to see some genuine emotion.

Shame for Renault - Grosjean was looking good and our man Kimi was also nailing it. I wonder if anyone who doubted a return from rallying would end so well? I wonder also if anyone has asked Kimi about it - does he regret moving away for 2 years?

Great for Schumi too - new tyres and some old skills.

Am sick to my back teeth of the immature name calling on Maldonado - grow the f.ck up you guys. No need at all. He is impulsive, he made a badly judged return to the track but I also feel that Lewis needed not to be fighing so hard. As someone posted earlier - know when to give up.
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Speedster
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Joined: 28 Mar 2012, 16:39

Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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raymondu999 wrote:
f1316 wrote:What is also interesting is that there may be a form of strategy which allows a driver to somewhat avoid the "tip-toeing" some have complained about. Because the cars are *so* far off the qualifying pace in the race - something like 7 seconds per lap at the start of the race - there could be an argument that the non-optimal strategy allows the driver to push so much harder so as to counteract the amount you lose in additional stops throughout the, let's say, four stints. In a sixty lap race, it only takes lapping an average of .333 of a second faster per lap to make up the extra 20 seconds which is roughly average for a pit stop. This is by no means a fact-based comment, but from the purely anecdotal evidence of driver comments, I would estimate that they are losing significantly more per lap by having to conserve.

Not only this, but it allows those drivers who are better at pushing the car to its limits to push for the full race, whilst still giving those drivers (and cars) that are better at conserving to conserve. Purely psychologically, I can imagine certain drivers benefitting from this more agressive strategy - qualifying position and overtaking possibilities allowing.
It does bring up a good question, and one I've wondered since Schumacher went out with the "you push 80%" and "raw eggs" comments. if it really was as bad as pushing 80% over 3 stints (I think closer to the 2012 average) I would suspect you could do 4 stints pushing at considerably closer to the limit, especially at overtake-friendly circuits. I mean, just take a look at Hamilton in Canada.
I think today we already saw a lot of teams just accept a three stop from the start (where some were still thinking of a one-stop), and push harder all the way. In a way, the safety car compromised them a bit as it made the final stint just a few laps too long, as we saw with Hamilton. But especially in a circuit like Valencia, where the pit stop take some 17-18 seconds (?) and you can lose 4-5 seconds a lap if your tyres are wasted, I think it is indeed smarter to push a bit harder and accept the extra pit stop.

Then again, it is quite difficult to find a good window this year with all those cars so close and if Alonso wouldn't have been able to overtake the odd 4 cars so quickly in the train formed in about lap 20, he would've never had a chance for victory. But surely I felt yesterday showed the reasonableness of just pushing, and I liked it.

alvinkhorfire
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 Team 2012

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Mr.S wrote:Everyone did 2 Stops more or less. I think MSC's first Stint was Extra-ordinary. He did brilliant laps to keep up within 4s off Rosberg after 20 odd laps with those DUD HARD tyres which neither had pace nor durability. Nobody showed great pace with the Hards. I thinK MSC is the only one who Showed great pace.
Excellent observation there. =D>
In hindsight, should Schumacher start with option tyres, following the polesitter's strategy? The prime tyres, as you said, were not helping in extending his stint as it was intended to be.

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SiLo
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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It was interesting watching the lap times of everyone in the lat 15 laps. Schumi and Webber were 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone else consistently with fresher tyres (and on softs). Made me wonder if people should have come in the pits and made up loads of time on everyone in front of them.

Hamilton and Maldonado.. pfft.. s**t happens! I feel that Hamilton should have been in front of Alonso anyway if Mclaren could get their s**t together enough to perform two decent pitstops. What's more incredible is that pitstop before was 2.9 seconds!
Felipe Baby!

lotus7
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Mr Alcatraz wrote:I haven't heard a single comment on how Maldonado did the exact same thing to Kimi at the same spot as "The Boss" on lap two. Check it on your Tivo, I think it was actually worse! :o The only difference is that Kimi gave him a wide berth! :-({|=
And Kimi came away with 20 points

f1316
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Speedster wrote:
raymondu999 wrote: It does bring up a good question, and one I've wondered since Schumacher went out with the "you push 80%" and "raw eggs" comments. if it really was as bad as pushing 80% over 3 stints (I think closer to the 2012 average) I would suspect you could do 4 stints pushing at considerably closer to the limit, especially at overtake-friendly circuits. I mean, just take a look at Hamilton in Canada.
Then again, it is quite difficult to find a good window this year with all those cars so close and if Alonso wouldn't have been able to overtake the odd 4 cars so quickly in the train formed in about lap 20, he would've never had a chance for victory. But surely I felt yesterday showed the reasonableness of just pushing, and I liked it.
It will, of course, depend slightly on the track in question, but Valencia is not known for being easy for overtaking and yet we saw that - with the correct level of agression - people were able to get past and make good tyres work. Alonso did some key overtakes at key points that allowed him to make his new softs work in the middle stint, when others were using the mediums.

Heat probably plays a big part too, because I don't think people were initially expecting this level of deg at Valencia. But nevertheless, providing that you're able to overtake, the maths should stack up anyway, particularly where there's a short pitlane. Much was made about the one-stoppers in Canada but if the top three in qualifying had all done their two stops - rather than trying to persist with a one - they would have remained the top three, so I think the faster cars could possibly counteract their wear issues in this way.

As was mentioned, this strategy variance was Pirelli's intention and, if it does shake out this way, I think their tyre construction will be somewhat vindicated.

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raymondu999
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Agreed. I think we should see a bigger variation in strategy when we get to the more overtake-friendly circuits such as Hockenheim.
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Mr Alcatraz
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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I'm curious! Somewhere early in the race weekend, I heard that Grosjean, and possibly Kimi were of the very few (real contenders) to use a new lump for this race. I was of course wrong. :lol:
In this kind of heat a new engine should hold onto its hp's a little better than a worn one.
Anyone have an opinion about engine use data as it applied to this race?
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Steven
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Can we also deduce from this GP that McLaren has worse tyre management than Ferrari? Hamilton's tyres were absolutely dead 2 laps from the end while Alonso comfortably finished, although they claimed there was "not much left".

From what I can tell, the tyre situation is so complicated that tyre life depends a lot on setup and the best team to save tyres could change from race to race. Lotus though seems to always be good in this respect.

On Hamilton, I do think he should have been wise enough to let Maldonado past, like Alonso did at the end of the Canadian GP. There's no point in fighting a car that's 3 seconds a lap faster. I still believe Maldonado was at fault, but Hamilton's ruthless defence cost him his own points as well.

kooleracer
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Re: 2012 European GP - Valencia

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Anyone knows a website with the laptimes from the drivers for all 57 laps of the race?

thx
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