Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Nando
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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raymondu999 wrote:I think you misunderstood me. I was wanting to remember what exactly the FIA stated as the reason of the new rule. Eg. did they say that the off-throttle mapping wasn't environmentally friendly? Was it because "Bernie said so?" Or what?
Oh sorry, here.
Charlie Whiting, the FIA's technical delegate, ruled that off-throttle blown diffusers qualified as a movable aerodynamic part because the concept used moveable parts within the engine to manipulate relative levels of aerodynamic grip, and were therefore illegal under the FIA's long-standing ban on moveable aerodynamic parts.
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bgroovers
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Matt Somers wrote:I'm sure I'll get flamed big time but in for a penny and all that

Here's my take on the Red Bull Tunnel Solution and perhaps a reason for the Driveshaft Fairing/Cowl

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/ ... lysis.html
Great write up and photos Matt. Very insightful.

amc
amc
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Matt Somers wrote:I'm sure I'll get flamed big time but in for a penny and all that

Here's my take on the Red Bull Tunnel Solution and perhaps a reason for the Driveshaft Fairing/Cowl

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/ ... lysis.html
I think the idea of generating a vortex through that tunnel is spot on. (And brilliant, whoever thought of it.)

However, I think all of the air in those tunnels exits through the starter motor hole, as I cannot see any other way that it can exit that tube. I also don't see any aerodynamic advantage to mixing it with cooling air either side of the gearbox when it could just as easily be routed underneath the crash structure and diffuser gurney flap to draw more air out of the diffuser. The most likely reason for the increase in size of the cooling exits - shock horror - is because Valencia is hotter than Canada, so more cooling is needed.

I think that if the magnus effect off the driveshaft was at all significant, other teams would be covering it far more readily than they currently are. It is also worth noting that magnus effect cannot work in an enclosed cowling - every force has an equal, colinear and opposite reaction and this reaction force would of course be on the cowling. So this has probably been done simply to allow the air off the sidepods (which is now not affected by a 'coke bottle' shape) to pass more cleanly through the suspension members and over the diffuser.

To clear other things up, the '50mm rule' as it has been called is a result of the application of article 3.8.4, subsection a), of the technical regulations. You can put almost what you like between the rear wheels where the strakes are, as long as it is less than 150mm behind the rear wheel centreline and less than 400mm above the reference plane (article 3.9.2).

Edit: I see the split in the tunnel now. Sorry.
Last edited by amc on 01 Jul 2012, 13:58, edited 1 time in total.

Matt Somers
Matt Somers
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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amc wrote:
Matt Somers wrote:I'm sure I'll get flamed big time but in for a penny and all that

Here's my take on the Red Bull Tunnel Solution and perhaps a reason for the Driveshaft Fairing/Cowl

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/ ... lysis.html
I think the idea of generating a vortex through that tunnel is spot on. (And brilliant, whoever thought of it.)

However, I think all of the air in those tunnels exits through the starter motor hole, as I cannot see any other way that it can exit that tube. I also don't see any aerodynamic advantage to mixing it with cooling air either side of the gearbox when it could just as easily be routed underneath the crash structure and diffuser gurney flap to draw more air out of the diffuser. The most likely reason for the increase in size of the cooling exits - shock horror - is because Valencia is hotter than Canada, so more cooling is needed.

I think that if the magnus effect off the driveshaft was at all significant, other teams would be covering it far more readily than they currently are. It is also worth noting that magnus effect cannot work in an enclosed cowling - every force has an equal, colinear and opposite reaction and this reaction force would of course be on the cowling. So this has probably been done simply to allow the air off the sidepods (which is now not affected by a 'coke bottle' shape) to pass more cleanly through the suspension members and over the diffuser.

To clear other things up, the '50mm rule' as it has been called is a result of the application of article 3.8.4, subsection a), of the technical regulations. You can put almost what you like between the rear wheels where the strakes are, as long as it is less than 150mm behind the rear wheel centreline and less than 400mm above the reference plane (article 3.9.2).
Of course I agree that having the larger cooling outlets would seem logical because of heat but I still feel this is where they are exiting the tunnel airflow (Studied the floor pictures and floor strake heights for a while before coming to that rationale) In the floor picture it is possible to make out the starter hole located in the centre where the two ducts start to ramp upward
Image
I have deleted 'the magnus effect' out of that latter paragraph as it wasn't supposed to be there DOH as i'd left it in as anchor point for whilst I re-edited the rest of the article.

Also here is a picture pre floor in order to ascertain just how much room is available around the crash structure / starter hole etc
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Owen.C93
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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That little hole is sealed to the gearbox pretty much, we're talking about the starter motor hole in the diffuser from the outside.
This one: http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 813.28.jpg

So ducts feed a little collector behind the inner starter hole and blows out the outer starter hole. The big sidepod entry hole goes either side of the gearbox and out the hot air exit.
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Matt Somers
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Owen.C93 wrote:That little hole is sealed to the gearbox pretty much, we're talking about the starter motor hole in the diffuser from the outside.
This one: http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 813.28.jpg

So ducts feed a little collector behind the inner starter hole and blows out the outer starter hole. The big sidepod entry hole goes either side of the gearbox and out the hot air exit.
Logically of course you're right, however as usual I'm torn by thinking laterally and seeing the potential for creating a deck above the diffuser by using the hot air exit.
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Owen.C93
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Matt Somers wrote:
Owen.C93 wrote:That little hole is sealed to the gearbox pretty much, we're talking about the starter motor hole in the diffuser from the outside.
This one: http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/me ... 813.28.jpg

So ducts feed a little collector behind the inner starter hole and blows out the outer starter hole. The big sidepod entry hole goes either side of the gearbox and out the hot air exit.
Logically of course you're right, however as usual I'm torn by thinking laterally and seeing the potential for creating a deck above the diffuser by using the hot air exit.
Not sure what you mean exactly. IMO this solution is merely to gain back some of the DF lost from their usually slim rear end that was replaced with a bulbous ramp exhaust. Maybe they are doing something more but it seems to me that it's mainly just utilising air flow (no significant fancy vortexes etc).
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Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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What interests me is how the ducts continue past the SMH entrance(I know it's hollow underneath) on to the concave part of the diffuser. Obviously the actual duct size doesn't have to be as large as it looks in the picture but from edge to edge of the silver duct in the picture is much larger than the section you can see from below the car. See what I'm saying? hard to explain it into words.
But it just looks like the duct completely bypasses the SMH and like it could be exiting above it just before the slit in the gurney flap below the light.
I'm not saying that's what it does, just what it sort of looks like & thinking out loud so to speak.

Owen.C93
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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:What interests me is how the ducts continue past the SMH entrance(I know it's hollow underneath) on to the concave part of the diffuser. Obviously the actual duct size doesn't have to be as large as it looks in the picture but from edge to edge of the silver duct in the picture is much larger than the section you can see from below the car. See what I'm saying? hard to explain it into words.
But it just looks like the duct completely bypasses the SMH and like it could be exiting above it just before the slit in the gurney flap below the light.
I'm not saying that's what it does, just what it sort of looks like & thinking out loud so to speak.
I see what you're saying, the ducts continue too far along and they could probably duct it more directly out of that rectangular hole. I think they just smoothed it out that way though. Looking at the image the only place another outlet could be is under that gurney flap, where there isn't must room at all and would have to be super thin.
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Matt Somers
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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:What interests me is how the ducts continue past the SMH entrance(I know it's hollow underneath) on to the concave part of the diffuser. Obviously the actual duct size doesn't have to be as large as it looks in the picture but from edge to edge of the silver duct in the picture is much larger than the section you can see from below the car. See what I'm saying? hard to explain it into words.
But it just looks like the duct completely bypasses the SMH and like it could be exiting above it just before the slit in the gurney flap below the light.
I'm not saying that's what it does, just what it sort of looks like & thinking out loud so to speak.
How about the this Jason:

Melbourne with starter hole exposed
Image

The new version of the floor takes the tunnels further back and encompasses the starter hole too
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Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Owen.C93 wrote: I see what you're saying, the ducts continue too far along and they could probably duct it more directly out of that rectangular hole. I think they just smoothed it out that way though. Looking at the image the only place another outlet could be is under that gurney flap, where there isn't must room at all and would have to be super thin.
Agreed. I'm wondering how they're getting the flow into the area below the floor. Would be interesting to know. :))


@Matt I wasn't saying it's not going into the SMH area, just more or less thinking out loud. Although it doesn't really look like it's going into there, I believe as well that's where it's going.

rayden
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hardingfv32 wrote:I am suspect of Vettel's performance indicating the RB has developed a better solution. I think that the fact that the second driver of most teams is not close to the first driver is an indication that the tire management issue is still problematic to even RB.

Brian
Webber went from 19th to 4th though, and was putting pressure on schumacher at the end on older tyres. I think they might be onto something.

Well the season was fun while it lasted.

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raymondu999
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Scarbs article from Autosport (subscription section)
Despite only being denied a third victory of the season in Valencia by unreliability, Red Bull is still struggling with development of its RB8.

Normally, it is the team that sets the design direction for the rest of the grid, but this year its exhaust solution has left it trailing. Not since 2009 and the double diffuser upgrade has Red Bull had to make such major updates to the car mid-season.

For Valencia, the team had another version of its exhaust\sidepod solution. This was a return to the bridge\tunnel concept first seen on the Melbourne-specification car.

Not only did the RB8 have new sidepods for the European Grand Prix, but also revised suspension, brake ducts and other aero parts.

Red Bull's decision to test its Melbourne exhaust solution in pre-season testing backfired when the system didn't deliver the results expected. Since then, it has tested several iterations of sidepod\exhaust, even returning to the launch specification for Vettel in China.

It is this tunnel solution in the sidepod that seems to promise the results Adrian Newey's design team are looking for, but it has its problems.

New rules brought in for 2012 banned the lowline exhausts used last year to create more downforce by blowing directly into the diffuser. Teams have sought to regain this blowing effect and the most popular design appears to be McLaren's, where the exhaust exits from the side of a short sidepod through a deep duct. The exhaust plume follows the downward line of the duct and the airflow over the sidepod further presses the plume back down towards the diffuser. Having the exhaust blow along the flank of the diffuser helps to seal it which creates more downforce.

Conversely, Red Bull has its exhaust exit on the top of the sidepod and the bodywork behind the tailpipe forming a ramp, which the exhaust plume follows down towards the diffuser.

In comparison to McLaren's solution, which points the exhaust plume openly at the diffusers edge, the Red Bull ramp guides it directly to the diffuser. This design should be more accurate and suffer less loss in the exhaust plume's energy.

But this longer sidepod design prevents the airflow passing low around the sidepods from reaching the diffuser. To allow the exhaust plume and sidepod flow to crossover, Red Bull devised the tunnel set up to allow the sidepod flow to pass under the ramped bodywork. In the early versions, this 50mm high tunnel did not allow the flow to pass through it as expected. Flow appeared to be reversing back out of the tunnel at speed, and its intended benefit of blowing the centre of the diffuser was not realised. So from Bahrain, the tunnel was closed off.

The suspicion is that the tunnel was too low and its inlet had sharp edges, which combined to deter airflow from smoothly passing into it.

For Valencia, the tunnel has returned and again it's limited by the rules to a 50mm height. But its entry has a significant radius to allow more flow into the duct. This flow is then routed inside the bodywork to exit through outlets flanking the gearbox. This allows the flows to cross over and enable the exhaust to be more accurately directed at the diffuser.

Further aiding the downswept flow over the sidepod are two new fins, similar to those on the McLaren, on top of the sidepod fronts. These direct airflow over the exhaust outlet to help it point downwards at the diffuser.

At the back of the car, the rear suspension has been redesigned. The upper wishbone is shorter, bringing its mounting point well inboard from the rear wheel. This change will increase the tyre's camber change as the suspension moves, which is a method of increasing the temperature of the rear Pirellis. Accompanying the new rear upright is a new fin over the top of the brake duct area and a new shaped brake drum inside the wheel. Changes have been made to the lower wishbone as well, which is shaped to fair-in the driveshaft to reduce the drag the rotating driveshaft creates.

With this solution potentially offering more downforce and less tyre wear, the prospects look good for Red Bull. As it not only improves one-lap pace in qualifying but also in the race with better tyre management.
Gary Anderson on the updates
Their performance at Valencia in 2010 and 2011 owed a lot to the Red Bull's rear-end stability, which was due to the downforce-boosting exhaust-blown diffuser technology that they pioneered and exploited better than anyone else.

That has been banned for this year, but teams are still trying to harness exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect and Red Bull have made some pretty significant changes to their car for Valencia this weekend in this area.
Since the start of the season, Red Bull have had a slot or duct in the rear floor, just ahead of the rear tyre. They have been playing around with it, and blocking it off for some races.

That is back for this race but in a different format - it now connects up to the diffuser, managing the airflow better in and around the leading edge of the rear tyre, sucking it into the low-pressure area in the diffuser and creating downforce.
Another big change is forward of that, in the rear sidepod design. It looks as if someone has sat on it - the top has been squashed down so it is much lower.
An important part of the modification is the hot air from the radiator - instead of exiting at the front of the rear tyre, it now comes out half way along.

That creates a sort of duct - which is good because you don't want that slow, hot air interfering with the fast, low-pressure air that creates downforce between the rear wheels.

These are pretty significant changes in how the team are trying to get the diffuser underneath the back of the car and the 'Coke-bottle' shape between the rear wheels above it talking to each other.

It's effectively trying to emulate the effect of the exhaust-blown diffuser, although it won't be nearly as powerful as that was.
That's not all - they also have a different rear wing endplate, little turning vanes on top of the sidepods like McLaren introduced a few races ago.

You'd have to say from watching practice that the changes are working well - Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber were second and third fastest and the car looked strong out on the track.

There is a long way to go yet but if I had to say which team looked most in control at the moment, I would say it was Red Bull.
Good rear-end stability is really important at Valencia. There are a lot of braking zones from high speed into slow corners, and the drivers have to brake as they're turning into the corner.

If you have good stability, you can run the correct brake balance. If you haven't, you end up moving the brake balance further forward than is ideal to stop the rears locking up.

That's fine when you can brake hard and transfer a lot of weight on to the front. But as the tyres wear out, that becomes increasingly difficult. You can't transfer as much weight, so you tend to lock the front tyres more.
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raymondu999
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amc wrote:To clear other things up, the '50mm rule' as it has been called is a result of the application of article 3.8.4, subsection a), of the technical regulations. You can put almost what you like between the rear wheels where the strakes are, as long as it is less than 150mm behind the rear wheel centreline and less than 400mm above the reference plane (article 3.9.2).
Eh? How does that stop them from putting a taller-than-50mm tunnel there?
Matt Somers wrote:Here's my take on the Red Bull Tunnel Solution and perhaps a reason for the Driveshaft Fairing/Cowl

http://somersf1.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/ ... lysis.html
Interesting - so you think that the pillar dividing up the duct is to basically "divide" the tunnel and free the area right underneath the exhaust of the 50mm rule? Sounds plausible. Very plausible, in fact.

To be honest right now to me it looks like Red Bull have basically copied the McLaren-style exhaust, and basically just added a ramp to guide it towards its destination. It looks a lot closer (to my eye) to the McLaren solution than the early Sauber configuration.
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Matt Somers
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Although we are all looking at this from an aerodynamic viewpoint we must not forget that thermodynamics play their role too. Increasing the temperature on the tunnel (exhaust gas above)
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