2012 European GP - Valencia

[Chuckjr]

...However, you look at Vettel and his RB8 and it's just a magic combination.

They have Newey. He's from and on a different planet than all other engineers. Hes done this everywhere he has gone and He's only getting better with ag and now he's doing it again. That and Vettle just seems to be better than people realize. My 2 cents anyway.

[SeijaKessen]

Forget championships and forget points.

A time when a driver is berated for being unable to relinquish his instinctive passion for actual competitive racing and his determination to fight and make others fight to get where they want to be (as opposed to just letting people past on a formality) is a time when racing drivers are being pushed out of the sport and being replaced by people just doing their job. Something Jacques Villeneuve hinted at in Canada. Many drivers seem very "meh" about what they're doing.

You can argue that Hamilton should have just let people by him, but I cant accept that he was wrong to put up a fight and create some actual racing for the fans.

How much actual exciting fighting for position did we see from the leading guys on the track apart from Hamilton defending against Grosjean, Raikkonen and Maldonado?

On another note, I'm beginning to wonder if Vergne's crash with Kovaleinen was a result of him being too agressive on the steering through the fast corner with his DRS open, losing the back end causing the front to point in towards Kovaleinen and then the rest is history?

The more I watch it and the more I watch Vergne's movements in the cockpit, the more I think it might be the case.

Not saying its an excuse, Kovaleinen deserves to not get knocked into so much as he has been, but I cant see the reason why Vergne would do it intentionally and expect to not ruin his own race either via stewards or via damage.

I think a lot of the problem resides in the rules regarding defending.

Everything feels subjective...and if anything the FIA has become so restrictive of defending that it seems like people start getting afraid to even get involved in too much defending because even what we perceive to be perfectly valid moves wind up getting reviewed by the stewards. Penalties seem to be handed out on a whim with very little rationale behind any of it.

I do think some rules are needed regarding defending because there are plenty of guys who would start running people into walls or god knows what else. I think the rules need to allow a little creativity/flexibility on the part of the drivers.

One thing I will say about Maldonado, he came into F1 about 20 years too late...would loved to have seen him battle it out with Schumacher in his prime.

[GrizzleBoy]

F1 cars were not the womb of safety they were 20 years ago. I certainly would not like to see his attitude, habit of using his car as a weapon and general lack of respect for safety in those days.

He almost killed a steward a few years ago and was literally banned from racing till his big money family bought him back in.

[SeijaKessen]

F1 cars were not the womb of safety they were 20 years ago. I certainly would not like to see his attitude, habit of using his car as a weapon and general lack of respect for safety in those days.

He almost killed a steward a few years ago and was literally banned from racing till his big money family bought him back in.

I have a question for you Grizzle.

If you could take one or the other, who would you pick, and why?

Pastor or Bruno Senna?

[Speedster]

I wonder how Vettel made a pit stop and he still was first? He missed the first run of the safety car when all the other got in and then he made the pit stop. Whats weird is that the safety car was waiting for him rather then going around normal SF speed.

Any idea how that happened?

The safety car came out a few feet behind Vettel, so he was able to complete the rest of the lap with yellow flag pace (or so I'd assume) and pit.

Grosjean, Alonso and Hamilton were so far behind (I rewatched it to check what happened and I was surprised at how long it took for them to enter the pit after Vettel had gone past), that they were able to pit immediately, Vettel effectively pitted a lap later, rejoined behind the safety car.

Grosjean and the rest exited the pit behind the safety car, but were allowed to pass it to rejoin the queue behind Vettel a lap later (as the safety car stopped to wait).

Edit:

Not to start a hate campaign against Red Bull or anything (can't say I particularly like the team, but I'm sympathetic to Horner and Webber normally, and rate Vettel quite highly, as well as Newey), but what's going on with them. I'm now reading this:

http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/4211 ... _Valencia/

Where Vettel and Red Bull claim they were intentionally hampered by the FIA. It is of course Helmut Marko (the biggest tool in F1 in my humble opinion) that is vocal about this, and funnily enough it is not the FIA that caused the safety car, but Marko's new boy JE Vergne, who replaced Algersuari at the last minute, by crashing into Kovalainen and then continuing way too fast to the pit lane, shredding half his car in the process.

Add to this the claim by Webber and Red Bull that Schumacher should get a penalty for speeding while it was Webber who was speeding in reality, Red Bull PR department will have to do a lot of repairing.

[andartop]

I thought they just have to drive at target lap times once the SC is deployed; so the relative positions are roughly maintained, and as Vettel had quite a healthy lead he naturally maintained the lead even after pitting a lap later. In the "good old days" they would all rush into the pits as fast as they could, but they can't do that anymore.

Regarding Hamilton-Alonso in the pits maybe it was just karma after what happened in 2010!

And as for the stewards pushing Vettel's car while the whole field was flying by, they should rightfully be handed the "grande cojones" award of the race.

Edit: regarding the above "conspiracy"? Certainly Karma as well!!!

[Ray]

Maldonado should not have been alongside Hamilton for the second of those two corners, it's not possible to make a move like that without driving outside the limits of the track. Hamilton shouldn't have to leave room on the inside unless Pastor was able to put his car there. Having the outside of the previous corner does not equal having the inside of the next corner, the only reason Pastor was in that position was because he took the corner faster than you normally would.

Imagine Hamilton's car didn't exist and Pastor drove that line on his own, he would never have legitimately made the corner without leaving the track, he was driving too fast and understeered off the circuit, hit the curb and then understeered in to the side of Hamilton's car.

You can't go wide on that corner and then try and take it at racing speed, he should have lifted and fallen in behind Hamilton, and then just overtaken him at the next corner.

It's like getting on the outside of someone on a chicane, you don't automatically win the inside of the second half of the chicane, the other driver has the racing line.

It's pretty bog standard race craft to be honest.

So he should yield? Okay. Didn't realize this wasn't racing. Had Maldonado pulled that pass off, no one would be calling for his head. Lewis shoved him off track, and Maldonado pushed the issue. Both were at fault and the idea that drivers can just shove people off track because "they've got the racing line" despite having a car alongside them is going to get someone hurt some day.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Something neither Lewis or Maldonado understand.

[SeijaKessen]

Lewis has issues with knowing when to maintain space when has an inside line. Look at the few times Hamilton ran Massa off the track or hit him last season...with the exception of I think Singapore, all of them involved Lewis taking the inside line and not wanting to yield one inch to Massa.

[Ray]

Massa and Hamilton are a touchy subject. I don't think Lewis did anything wrong, nor Maldonado. I think they both put up a fight when it wasn't needed and unfortunately Lewis came out the other side in the barrier. His tires were already long past shot, so I don't understand why he put up a fight. Alonso didn't put up a fight in Canada like that. Then again, why not fight? Two-ish laps to go for a podium, I don't blame him a bit for trying to fight.

[SeijaKessen]

Massa and Hamilton are a touchy subject. I don't think Lewis did anything wrong, nor Maldonado. I think they both put up a fight when it wasn't needed and unfortunately Lewis came out the other side in the barrier. His tires were already long past shot, so I don't understand why he put up a fight. Alonso didn't put up a fight in Canada like that. Then again, why not fight? Two-ish laps to go for a podium, I don't blame him a bit for trying to fight.

If he had more grip on his tires I would have understood the fighting more. To not only have to defend against an attacking driver, but to have to also focus on maintaining car stability? It's a tough task. I think he took on too much risk...the calculated play would have been just to let Maldonado go and focus on getting to the end of the race.

Maldonado made a bad call for choosing that particular corner to try to make the move, it was the wrong spot. IIRC, Raikkonen tried it on Hamilton there and had to back out and try again on the straight.

By the same token though, Maldonado may have thought he needed to get past because there were two-ish laps to go, much in the same way Lewis chose to defend. Nothing was certain for either one of them. Either way we could probably analyze this like the Zapruder film endlessly, and there is no definitive answer to be had. People have been coming down on this in black and white...I've viewed the entire thing as a grey area where the sides people are taking have more to do with like or dislike of a driver than anything else.

[GrizzleBoy]

So he should yield? Okay. Didn't realize this wasn't racing. Had Maldonado pulled that pass off, no one would be calling for his head. Lewis shoved him off track, and Maldonado pushed the issue. Both were at fault and the idea that drivers can just shove people off track because "they've got the racing line" despite having a car alongside them is going to get someone hurt some day.

Discretion is the better part of valor. Something neither Lewis or Maldonado understand.

Yield is not even the word.

Maldonado didn't have anything to yield to Lewis. Lewis was where he wanted and needed to be. Maldonado was fighting for something that wasn't there for him or a space that didn't exist.

He didn't have track position, he didn't have the line, the overtaking maneovre wasn't completed, he had literally no route to get past other than leaving the track or turing into the rear of Lewis' car and he ultimately did not manage to pass Hamilton.

Yielding has nothing to do with it, he should have just given up on an impossible overtake. Simple as.

[Ray]

Yield is not even the word.

Maldonado didn't have anything to yield to Lewis. Lewis was where he wanted and needed to be. Maldonado was fighting for something that wasn't there for him or a space that didn't exist.

He didn't have track position, he didn't have the line, the overtaking maneovre wasn't completed, he had literally no route to get past other than leaving the track or turing into the rear of Lewis' car and he ultimately did not manage to pass Hamilton.

Yielding has nothing to do with it, he should have just given up on an impossible overtake. Simple as.

Bullshit. Making up your own version on events, and ignoring historical proof of previous moves throughout the entire race in that corner don't make you right. On lap 10 Grosjean pulled that exact same move on Lewis and made it stick, (because Lewis didn't try and shove him over the red and yellow area) one of many moves around the outside in turn 12 over that entire race. Lewis shoved him off the track whereas he didn't shove Grosjean off the track in the exact same corner. Going around the outside of turn 12 is not a guaranteed pass, but many outside moves were stuck there safely, and one of them was on Lewis on lap 10. To say an outside passing attempt in that corner is impossible is completely untrue and all the passing moves there during that race prove you 100% wrong. His tires were completely shot and he shoved Maldonado off track trying to prevent a legitimate overtake there. I don't think he did anything blatantly wrong, he was well within his rights to defend his position, but there was absolutely nothing impossible about that move and Maldonado had just as much right to occupy the space he did, and Lewis didn't give him the room like every other driver did in that same corner. It was a race for a podium spot, I'm not discounting that, but they were equally at fault. Maldonado pushed the issue where he could've backed off and gotten him in the next corner, and Lewis drove him outside the white lines trying to defend a move he had no other hope of preventing except to push him off.

The definition of yield is to give up. I've provided you with a link to the definition and you've confirmed that he should have yielded to Lewis on a legitimate overtaking move in a corner where many overtakes had happened over that entire race.

[GrizzleBoy]

Yield is not even the word.

Maldonado didn't have anything to yield to Lewis. Lewis was where he wanted and needed to be. Maldonado was fighting for something that wasn't there for him or a space that didn't exist.

He didn't have track position, he didn't have the line, the overtaking maneovre wasn't completed, he had literally no route to get past other than leaving the track or turing into the rear of Lewis' car and he ultimately did not manage to pass Hamilton.

Yielding has nothing to do with it, he should have just given up on an impossible overtake. Simple as.

Bullshit. Making up your own version on events, and ignoring historical proof of previous moves throughout the entire race in that corner don't make you right. On lap 10 Grosjean pulled that exact same move on Lewis and made it stick, (because Lewis didn't try and shove him over the red and yellow area) one of many moves around the outside in turn 12 over that entire race. Lewis shoved him off the track whereas he didn't shove Grosjean off the track in the exact same corner. Going around the outside of turn 12 is not a guaranteed pass, but many outside moves were stuck there safely, and one of them was on Lewis on lap 10. To say an outside passing attempt in that corner is impossible is completely untrue and all the passing moves there during that race prove you 100% wrong. His tires were completely shot and he shoved Maldonado off track trying to prevent a legitimate overtake there. I don't think he did anything blatantly wrong, he was well within his rights to defend his position, but there was absolutely nothing impossible about that move and Maldonado had just as much right to occupy the space he did, and Lewis didn't give him the room like every other driver did in that same corner. It was a race for a podium spot, I'm not discounting that, but they were equally at fault. Maldonado pushed the issue where he could've backed off and gotten him in the next corner, and Lewis drove him outside the white lines trying to defend a move he had no other hope of preventing except to push him off.

The definition of yield is to give up. I've provided you with a link to the definition and you've confirmed that he should have yielded to Lewis on a legitimate overtaking move in a corner where many overtakes had happened over that entire race.

Sorry, no.

First of all I never meant that overtaking in that manner, at that corner was impossible, I meant MALDONADO trying it at that moment, with the total lack of actual overtaking space he had, it was never going to be possible.

Grosjean got by via actually winning the corner and being ahead of Lewis during braking and corner entry. If Lewis had attempted the same line in this instance, he would have driven into the side of Grosjean because Grosjean was actually slighting ahead going into the corner.

Video evidence:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2p3h9HvwAw[/youtube]

Maldonado at no point ever won the corner or the racing line. Coming into the corner, they ended up basically wheel to wheel, meaning where Grosjean could turn in a little earlier to get even a little purchase on the racing line, Maldonado could only turn into Lewis' car or give up on the move.

Long story short, Grosjean had room because he made it for himself. He was superior through the braking and corner entry phase and WON his space.

You and others expect Maldonado to just have it given to him, even though he actually had no right to it due to the fact that he did not win the right to have the space via actual racing.

What makes it worse is that he failed so badly to overtake a car that even as a spectator you could visibly see was struggling so much. I was actually shocked that Hamilton was able to defend against him for so long.

[Ray]

You and others expect Maldonado to just have it given to him...

Kindly direct me to the statement I made that Maldonado should have been given the place by Lewis. Not given room, given the position because Lewis yielded it to him.

How much actual exciting fighting for position did we see from the leading guys on the track apart from Hamilton defending against Grosjean, Raikkonen and Maldonado?

Are you serious? Did you not see what amounted to the winning move of the race? Alonso got a demon pass on Grosjean and basically sealed the race win, and you're bleating on about how "exciting" it was to see Lewis fishtailing around with shot tires? Lewis wasn't defending ---, he was trying desperately to mitigate his massive speed deficit and trying to keep his head above water. The fact that he was able to keep the car within the walls is amazing in it's own right, but that wasn't racing by any stretch. That was desperation much like Alonso in Canada and Kimi earlier this season. Are your blinders that bad? There are other racers out there besides Lewis.

Grosjean was much faster during the first stint, but he had to work to get by and he did it in the end. It was better for the fans to see that fight.

Not comparable to the other two because his tires weren't completely shot like they were when Kimi passed and Maldonado attempted to pass.

[Ray]

Maldonado should not have been alongside Hamilton for the second of those two corners, it's not possible to make a move like that without driving outside the limits of the track.
It's pretty bog standard race craft to be honest.

You'll never drive for Renault, Torro Rosso, Red Bull, or Mercedes then. All of those teams had drivers that made a pass at that exact corner without incident.

Saying "it's not possible to make a move like that" is blatantly and hilariously false. That move was made many times in that GP by a handful of drivers.