Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[beelsebob]

This is what we know:

• Adrian Newey designed the Red Bull cars from 2006 - 2008, in which their best results were one third place per season.
• Similarly, Newey influenced two Toro Rosso cars before any results came in (although Vettel almost took 3rd in a rain soaked Japanese GP).
• The first new Toro Rosso car after Vettel joined the team, went from a backmarker car to a sub-top car that won the Italian Grand Prix and actually beat Toro Rosso.
• The combination of Mark Webber and Adrian Newey, in two years, only produced one podium finish. The year Sebastian Vettel joined Red Bull Racing, they won their first GP in the third race.

• Everyone that has worked with him, praises Sebastian Vettel for his technical skills, his work ethics and endless desire to improve (himself and the car).
• Just two points in cases: he was the only driver to visit the Pirelli factory prior to their entry in Formula One and he spent half the Abu Dhabi GP figuring out just why his tire burst.
• We have seen this year, instead of being satisfied with a car driving around in 6th place, he was trying different configurations; some worked, some didn't, but the RB8 was back to dominating in two/three races.

Taking all this knowledge into consideration, maybe, just maybe, could we make an assumption that Vettel is a very talented developping driver (as well), and it is not just Newey?

Not really, no. Basically, because your argument applies to pretty much all top drivers this year – they've all made the car seem dominant at a couple of races. What we're seeing this year is that when you put Vettel in a car that doesn't suit him, he is no longer the wonderkind. Yes, he's a very good driver, he may even be a great like Alonso, but we just don't know until we get him put head to head with one of the true greats.

[Nando]

Vettel and Hamilton are really in the same boat. Despite their success, their careers are still too young to make these kinds of judgments.

Hamilton matched an imploding Alonso during his rookie season in a great car. I don't know what that means. He won the World Championship the next year when both he and Massa, as well as their respective teams, appeared to do all they could to shoot themselves in the foot. I don't know what that means, either.

Vettel has driven a Newey masterpiece every year of his career save for his rookie season, and he's done so against a driver who was never rated all that highly until he himself got into a Newey car, too. I have no clue what that means.

I think they're still just too inexorably linked to their teams/cars at this point to say anything with any real sense of perspective.

Not really. You don´t even have to look at Hamilton´s F1 career to know he is one of the greatest.

Not sure if you have heard what Alonso has said about Hamilton either. He if anyone should know.
I also dislike the word imploded Alonso. That´s a wrong assessment, more like Superior Alonso as he had just become a 2-time world champion.

And was given another championship winning car. But Hamilton beat him fair and square in his first year.
There is no excuses for Alonso.

[SeijaKessen]

Vettel and Hamilton are really in the same boat. Despite their success, their careers are still too young to make these kinds of judgments.

Hamilton matched an imploding Alonso during his rookie season in a great car. I don't know what that means. He won the World Championship the next year when both he and Massa, as well as their respective teams, appeared to do all they could to shoot themselves in the foot. I don't know what that means, either.

Vettel has driven a Newey masterpiece every year of his career save for his rookie season, and he's done so against a driver who was never rated all that highly until he himself got into a Newey car, too. I have no clue what that means.

I think they're still just too inexorably linked to their teams/cars at this point to say anything with any real sense of perspective.

Not really. You don´t even have to look at Hamilton´s F1 career to know he is one of the greatest.

Not sure if you have heard what Alonso has said about Hamilton either. He if anyone should know.
I also dislike the word imploded Alonso. That´s a wrong assessment, more like Superior Alonso as he had just become a 2-time world champion.

And was given another championship winning car. But Hamilton beat him fair and square in his first year.
There is no excuses for Alonso.

You need to stop throwing around terms like "greatest" as easily as you do.

There's a table reserved for the upper echelons of champions.

Hamilton, no matter how much you may wish it, is not worthy of sitting at that table. Neither is Vettel for that matter.

Are you really going to tell me Hamilton is worthy of sitting with Jimmy Clark, Fangio, Senna, and Prost?

[raymondu999]

Easy now all of you...
Let's do our best to keep this thread clean of fistfights

[SeijaKessen]

Easy now all of you...
Let's do our best to keep this thread clean of fistfights

Well I'm just trying to understand how anyone can definitively say that Hamilton or Vettel are all-time greats when they are both in their mid-20s, and they do not have a full body of work that we can look at yet. Or, they exhibit such a quality that you know they are already destined to be legends. People knew in the mid-60s that Jimmy Clark was the greatest driver on the planet. People knew the same in the 50s about Fangio.

I haven't seen either Vettel, or Hamilton exhibit the qualities that either one of those drivers espoused.

[raymondu999]

The term "great" is in the eye of the beholder. People obviously have different boundaries for considering a driver, or any other person, "great." That's why we have opinions, and why we have politics.

You might not see them as greats. I don't. I personally think they will be remembered amongst - or perhaps *just* below - the Fangios/Sennas/Clarks/etc. but it's certainly something that boils down to personal opinion.

[bhall]

I don't know what it is about Vettel and Hamilton fans, but the false logic (not to mention the bogus facts) often employed when they discuss their heroes makes my head spin. It also makes me glad I missed the days of Schumacher dominance, because I imagine that --- was even worse.

One can give those drivers all the reasonable credit in the world, but, for some reason, it's not enough. They must be anointed as the second-coming in the eyes of those who readily drop to their knees in worship to satiate their fellatious cravings. I think it's unhealthy.

You have two drivers, neither of whom have been around for even six full years, and they've both enjoyed advantages not usually seen in the world of Formula One. Neither had early Minardi or Jordan days as is often the case when a driver breaks into F1. They both debuted in good, if not great, cars - Vettel's first run for BMW was in a good car. They've both benefited enormously from the designer almost universally acclaimed as the best F1 has ever seen - MP4-22 and MP4-23, Hamilton's weapons during his best years to-date, were clear evolutions of Newey's design work at McLaren. They've both been the sole focus of the vast majority of their teams' efforts.

To their credit, they've made the most of the opportunities given to them, and that's all you can really ask of a driver. But, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't go any further than that...yet. I want to see them away from Newey's influence for one thing. Hamilton's been no more than solid thus far in his non-Newey experience, and Vettel has virtually no non-Newey experience.

So, forgive me if I'm not exactly pushing for a front-row seat to either one of these guy's coronation ceremonies. My respect must be earned.

[raymondu999]

I don't know what it is about Vettel and Hamilton fans, but the false logic (not to mention the bogus facts) often employed when they discuss their heroes makes my head spin. It also makes me glad I missed the days of Schumacher dominance, because I imagine that --- was even worse.

One can give those drivers all the reasonable credit in the world, but, for some reason, it's not enough. They must be anointed as the second-coming in the eyes of those who readily drop to their knees in worship to satiate their fellatious cravings. I think it's unhealthy.

You have two drivers, neither of whom have been around for even six full years, and they've both enjoyed advantages not usually seen in the world of Formula One. Neither had early Minardi or Jordan days as is often the case when a driver breaks into F1. They both debuted in good, if not great, cars - Vettel's first run for BMW was in a good car. They've both benefited enormously from the designer almost universally acclaimed as the best F1 has ever seen - MP4-22 and MP4-23, Hamilton's weapons during his best years to-date, were clear evolutions of Newey's design work at McLaren. They've both been the sole focus of the vast majority of their teams' efforts.

To their credit, they've made the most of the opportunities given to them, and that's all you can really ask of a driver. But, as far as I'm concerned, it doesn't go any further than that...yet. I want to see them away from Newey's influence for one thing. Hamilton's been no more than solid thus far in his non-Newey experience, and Vettel has virtually no non-Newey experience.

So, forgive me if I'm not exactly pushing for a front-row seat to either one of these guy's coronation ceremonies. My respect must be earned.

Easy, easy... must you be so hostile? And must you always sneak in the word "fellatio" at every possible opportunity?

On results and credit, I think it's important to make the distinction. There are some factual results which cannot be refuted. Eg. Vettel finished P3 in the 2012 British GP. This is a fact and cannot be refuted, no matter what you do. Webber, his teammate, outfinished him in P1. This too is fact. Alonso finished in P2. That is also fact.

Credit-wise, obviously there are bound to be differences of opinion between what someone infers from a result and others do. "reasonable" credit is just that - a product of the reasoning of an individual or committee. It is, by definition, very subjective. Some people lump more credit on Vettel/Hamilton than you do. That is a fact. But whether that is "reasonable" credit or not is a judgment call.

[mnmracer]

This is what we know:

• Adrian Newey designed the Red Bull cars from 2006 - 2008, in which their best results were one third place per season.
• Similarly, Newey influenced two Toro Rosso cars before any results came in (although Vettel almost took 3rd in a rain soaked Japanese GP).
• The first new Toro Rosso car after Vettel joined the team, went from a backmarker car to a sub-top car that won the Italian Grand Prix and actually beat Toro Rosso.
• The combination of Mark Webber and Adrian Newey, in two years, only produced one podium finish. The year Sebastian Vettel joined Red Bull Racing, they won their first GP in the third race.

• Everyone that has worked with him, praises Sebastian Vettel for his technical skills, his work ethics and endless desire to improve (himself and the car).
• Just two points in cases: he was the only driver to visit the Pirelli factory prior to their entry in Formula One and he spent half the Abu Dhabi GP figuring out just why his tire burst.
• We have seen this year, instead of being satisfied with a car driving around in 6th place, he was trying different configurations; some worked, some didn't, but the RB8 was back to dominating in two/three races.

Taking all this knowledge into consideration, maybe, just maybe, could we make an assumption that Vettel is a very talented developping driver (as well), and it is not just Newey?

Not really, no. Basically, because your argument applies to pretty much all top drivers this year – they've all made the car seem dominant at a couple of races. What we're seeing this year is that when you put Vettel in a car that doesn't suit him, he is no longer the wonderkind. Yes, he's a very good driver, he may even be a great like Alonso, but we just don't know until we get him put head to head with one of the true greats.

Five years captured in commenting on half a season.
Why even bother responding if you're not going to take it serious?

[Hail22]

Vettel in my eyes for now is overrated, unfortunately no driver since the last 12+ years will be remembered quite like the beautifully spoken/minded drivers like Gilles Villeneuve, Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell (Don't get me wrong I'm missing a few).

But to me...Formula 1 is too...artificial these days...no fear for control, wrapped up in cotton wool...they will be remembered by some of the Y Gen , and maybe a few others...but most higher aged Y Gens, X Gens, and baby boomers know how beautiful racing once was, it was like an orchestra mixed with battle. There was friendships off the track etc...these days are no longer evident in my eyes.

So maybe in this new "Artificial era" Vettel is good...but like himself and fellow drivers...they cannot and should not be compared to the great/legendary drivers of old...those drivers fought their car, fought danger, stared death in the face, etc.

[mnmracer]

Vettel in my eyes for now is overrated, unfortunately no driver since the last 12 years will be remembered quite like the beautifully spoken/minded drivers like Gilles Villeneuve, Ayrton Senna, Nelson Piquet, Nigel Mansell (Don't get me wrong I'm missing a few).

But to me...Formula 1 is too...artificial these days...no fear for control, wrapped up in cotton wool...they will be remembered by some of the Y Gen , and maybe a few others...but most higher aged Y Gens, X Gens, and baby boomers know how beautiful racing once was, it was like an orchestra mixed with battle. There was friendships off the track etc...these days are no longer evident in my eyes.

Fortunately, I am not a Y-gen stuck in time If Ayrton Senna, or your beloved Gilles Villeneuve, had started their career in 2005, you would have dismissed one of the best drivers of all time, simply because you're stuck in the days of old.

The beauty of Formula One is that, no matter which era, it is the mix of the best drivers of the world taking control of the most highly advanced technology in the world. In yesteryear, that meant being the best in controlling more slippery heavy-steering cars around relatively easier tracks with performance gaps that let you make a mistake. Today this means having to drive perfect races because the performance gap is so close and even a lesser driver can be right on your tail, while your head is ripped of by G-forces and the tracks have more corners than ever before.

[bhall]

Easy, easy... must you be so hostile? And must you always sneak in the word "fellatio" at every possible opportunity?

[...]

Ray, you're very reasonable when it comes to this and most everything else. So, please don't think anything I've said is directed your way.

Maybe it's because I'm bipolar, but I consider the willful ignorance and patently false logic displayed by those who unabashedly engage in hero worship to be offensive, because it readily assumes no one knows any better. It's intellectual dishonesty that, ironically, does a tremendous disservice to the drivers/teams/whatever they claim to represent.

For example (my notes italicized in brackets):

This is what we know:

• Adrian Newey designed the Red Bull cars from 2006 - 2008, in which their best results were one third place per season.
  [Adrian Newey did not design the 2006 Red Bull.]
• Similarly, Newey influenced two Toro Rosso cars before any results came in (although Vettel almost took 3rd in a rain soaked Japanese GP).
  [Newey designed each STR car from 2007-2009. And since when do "almost" results mean anything?]
• The first new Toro Rosso car after Vettel joined the team, went from a backmarker car to a sub-top car that won the Italian Grand Prix and actually beat Toro Rosso.
  [Toro Rosso beat Toro Rosso? And where's the "rain soaked" designator here? And what's with the persistent memory lapses in regard to what Newey did and did not design?]
• The combination of Mark Webber and Adrian Newey, in two years, only produced one podium finish. The year Sebastian Vettel joined Red Bull Racing, they won their first GP in the third race.
  [There's no mention of the complete rewrite of the regulations that left only two teams competitive at the top of the field to begin 2009. Vettel won against Webber, Button and Barrichello. No other driver was in a car capable of a win at that point in 2009.]

• Everyone that has worked with him, praises Sebastian Vettel for his technical skills, his work ethics and endless desire to improve (himself and the car).
• Just two points in cases: he was the only driver to visit the Pirelli factory prior to their entry in Formula One and he spent half the Abu Dhabi GP figuring out just why his tire burst.
• We have seen this year, instead of being satisfied with a car driving around in 6th place, he was trying different configurations; some worked, some didn't, but the RB8 was back to dominating in two/three races.
  [I think we can all see that these are masturbatory.]

Taking all this knowledge [?] into consideration, maybe, just maybe, could we make an assumption that Vettel is a very talented developping driver (as well), and it is not just Newey? That Vettel, like his idol Mr. Schumacher, can take the team in a new direction and turn it around into a winning car.
[No, the rules don't even allow for such driver-driven development. There's no in-season testing, only limited off-season testing, and Newey had four sets of data to use in development.]

And of course, just like Schumacher had Brawn/Byrne and Todd with him at Ferrari, Vettel has Newey and Horner by his side, but that doesn't mean Schumacher deserves any less praise for turning around a sub-top Ferrari. Whether he's on Schumi level or not, we don't know, but just putting it all down to Newey is a little simple.
[And lying to give Vettel credit is not "a little simple?"]

Either that, or it is extremely coincidental that before Vettel joined a team, it was sub-par, and after, while all other factors remained the same (budget, designer) it turns into a much better/winning car.
[This statement approaches being the most honest of the bunch. Yet, it still falls short.]

I'm very sorry if my responses to this sort of drivel are offensive to some. I mean that sincerely.

But, I also sincerely believe that objectivity demands that these fellatious (the imagery that conveys is just too appropriate to leave it on the sidelines) non sequiturs be challenged at every turn, especially when they're submitted by someone so joyously and arrogantly ignorant.

[raymondu999]

But to me...Formula 1 is too...artificial these days...no fear for control, wrapped up in cotton wool...they will be remembered by some of the Y Gen , and maybe a few others...but most higher aged Y Gens, X Gens, and baby boomers know how beautiful racing once was, it was like an orchestra mixed with battle. There was friendships off the track etc...these days are no longer evident in my eyes.

So maybe in this new "Artificial era" Vettel is good...but like himself and fellow drivers...they cannot and should not be compared to the great/legendary drivers of old...those drivers fought their car, fought danger, stared death in the face, etc.

Are you actually aiming your comment on Vettel, or are you saying it as a blanket statement over all the drivers of the current era?

And of course we can't compare them. They lived in such different eras. And that's not limited to F1 drivers. Take any profession, any job, any category of person. You can't compare. If something as fundamental as giving birth to, and raising, a child is different, how on earth do you expect things to not happen that way in other areas?

I understand that you liked how it used to be, and I don't begrudge you that. But we have to take into consideration that the human race has moved on. That's what we call evolution and advancement.

Easy, easy... must you be so hostile? And must you always sneak in the word "fellatio" at every possible opportunity?

[...]

Ray, you're very reasonable when it comes to this and most everything else. So, please don't think anything I've said is directed your way.

I know it wasn't aimed at me. I was just doing my best to calm the conversation down. My point was that it boils down to judgment, and different people will judge the same thing differently. Hence the saying, "the map is not the territory." I do apologise if I came across as offensive in said post though. Upon reading back I may have. No malice was intended.

[bhall]

Not at all, Ray. I respect your views, because they're always well thought out and carry with them absolutely no pretension whatsoever.

It's other people's mangling of fact that I find offensive. I couldn't care less about judgments made one way or the other, just so long as they're based on actual facts rather than inventions of a barely half-honest discourse.

[Hail22]

But to me...Formula 1 is too...artificial these days...no fear for control, wrapped up in cotton wool...they will be remembered by some of the Y Gen , and maybe a few others...but most higher aged Y Gens, X Gens, and baby boomers know how beautiful racing once was, it was like an orchestra mixed with battle. There was friendships off the track etc...these days are no longer evident in my eyes.

So maybe in this new "Artificial era" Vettel is good...but like himself and fellow drivers...they cannot and should not be compared to the great/legendary drivers of old...those drivers fought their car, fought danger, stared death in the face, etc.

Are you actually aiming your comment on Vettel, or are you saying it as a blanket statement over all the drivers of the current era?

And of course we can't compare them. They lived in such different eras. And that's not limited to F1 drivers. Take any profession, any job, any category of person. You can't compare. If something as fundamental as giving birth to, and raising, a child is different, how on earth do you expect things to not happen that way in other areas?

I understand that you liked how it used to be, and I don't begrudge you that. But we have to take into consideration that the human race has moved on. That's what we call evolution and advancement.
.

I'm aiming it at every single driver.

My last post though, I don't like forum trolls and no offense Mnmracer you're by far on my hot list for troll of the month, you're unable to accept other members views/opinions...I have no respect for people like yourself.

Ray and myself are perfect examples we had big differences and arguments in March/April now we talk on occasion about current dealings with certain entities within F1 and such...because we both show each other "respect".