Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

Modus operandi is immaterial, turning a team round takes time.
Mercedes have a precedent in their relationship with McLaren.
In time we will see the how it all pans out.

[SeijaKessen]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

Modus operandi is immaterial, turning a team round takes time.
Mercedes have a precedent in their relationship with McLaren.
In time we will see the how it all pans out.

But...

When do you need to turn around a championship winning team?

Isn't the whole point of buying one so you don't have to put in the time to turn around a backmarker team that may, or may not be successful?

[Slife]

Isn't the whole point of buying one so you don't have to put in the time to turn around a backmarker team that may, or may not be successful?

Well I think BMW showed that you can turn a non front runner team into one of the top 3 teams.

[bhall]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

[...]

I'd say there's quite a difference between being the engine supplier to a struggling team and actually being the struggling team. For example...

Well I think BMW showed that you can turn a non front runner team into one of the top 3 teams.

Did they?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

Modus operandi is immaterial, turning a team round takes time.
Mercedes have a precedent in their relationship with McLaren.
In time we will see the how it all pans out.

But...

When do you need to turn around a championship winning team?

Isn't the whole point of buying one so you don't have to put in the time to turn around a backmarker team that may, or may not be successful?

You work with what you have got. No one here is saying Mercedes are title contenders, nor where McLaren Mercedes at this stage of their partnership.
Should Mercedes be lambasted for buying brawn? I don't think so.
Should they be given credit for investing and sticking by the project in choppy water? I think so.

Let's see first if they come to agreement with Bernie over the Concorde agreement...

[CHT]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

Modus operandi is immaterial, turning a team round takes time.
Mercedes have a precedent in their relationship with McLaren.
In time we will see the how it all pans out.

i think the more important question is if Mercedes is selling more cars after splitting with Mclaren.

I actually feel the Merc brand presence is stronger now as compared to the days when they were with Mclaren.

[SeijaKessen]

Are Mercedes not achieving the same now as they did when they entered partnership with McLaren?
Back then, was it as competitive as it is now?

Modus operandi is immaterial, turning a team round takes time.
Mercedes have a precedent in their relationship with McLaren.
In time we will see the how it all pans out.

But...

When do you need to turn around a championship winning team?

Isn't the whole point of buying one so you don't have to put in the time to turn around a backmarker team that may, or may not be successful?

You work with what you have got. No one here is saying Mercedes are title contenders, nor where McLaren Mercedes at this stage of their partnership.
Should Mercedes be lambasted for buying brawn? I don't think so.
Should they be given credit for investing and sticking by the project in choppy water? I think so.

Let's see first if they come to agreement with Bernie over the Concorde agreement...

I'm not saying they should be lambasted for buying Brawn.

You're missing my point on this.

The whole reason for buying a championship winning team right after they won the championship, is to avoid the woes of teams like Toyota. It certainly makes sense to do so if you are attempting to reap rewards relatively quickly.

I would have done the same thing if I were making the decision.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So because of an inauspicious start, and their previous glory days, mercedes should withdraw/feel ashamed?
That's not perspective IMO.

When you see what's changed in 50 years, you cannot even compare.
The reality is that Mercedes in its current form have never owned a formula 1 team.
It may be the remnants of Tyrrell/BAR/Honda, but it's very existence is down to Mercedes. As such, it deserves respect.
When others quit, merc bit the bullet and assumed control. The team was skeletal in comparison to its previous guise and rebuilding will take a while.

Questioning management in this process is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot. Unless there are glaring issues, there is not much to debate. Schumachers reliabilty was an issue, it was dealt with.
As cocles intimated, saboteurs exist in F1...

[SeijaKessen]

So because of an inauspicious start, and their previous glory days, mercedes should withdraw/feel ashamed?
That's not perspective IMO.

When you see what's changed in 50 years, you cannot even compare.
The reality is that Mercedes in its current form have never owned a formula 1 team.
It may be the remnants of Tyrrell/BAR/Honda, but it's very existence is down to Mercedes. As such, it deserves respect.
When others quit, merc bit the bullet and assumed control. The team was skeletal in comparison to its previous guise and rebuilding will take a while.

Questioning management in this process is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot. Unless there are glaring issues, there is not much to debate. Schumachers reliabilty was an issue, it was dealt with.
As cocles intimated, saboteurs exist in F1...

Why does MGP get a blanket pass on everything?

I believe they have drivers and team members, all of whom have worked in F1.

I distinctly recall some of them being involved with championship winning teams.

Isn't the whole reason for buying a championship winning team, so the Silver Arrows does not need to start from scratch?

If so, then why are people such as yourself, and others, insinuating that MGP has no experience in F1 when clearly, the people running the team on a day-to-day basis all have it?

Unless I am mistaken, I don't believe Dr. Z is the team principal, and nor are the board members mechanics/engineers.

Or am I incorrect on that?

[SeijaKessen]

That a F1 team has to do such a thing is incredible.

No other team has ever had to specifically watch over one driver's car the way MGP has. Correct me if I am wrong...I can't recall such a thing.

You don't think that signifies that there is something fundamentally wrong at MGP?

Has there ever been an instance in which such a thing has been required?

Yes, yes... I'm sure this has never happened before. No team, in the history of grand prix racing, has ever had a lazy mechanic (saboteur? /tinfoilhat) who knew how to fly under the radar. You are right. This is certainly the first time in the history of the sport that a team has had to deal with this.

--Whereas some see a situation in which Mercedes probably has one or two mechanics not doing their job, others see a fundamental problem within the team. The sky is falling!

Your bias has you overreaching to criticize this team. Doesn't the Audi forum miss you?

I have a question for you.

Do you think the Daimler board OK's the purchase of Brawn if they know that in 2 1/2 seasons, they would have very little to show for all the money spent?

Oh I see, what you're doing there. By directly answering your question, I'd be going along with you inferring that Daimler currently isn't happy with the team. On the contrary, works teams like Mercedes are ultimately marketing tools. Daimler's marketing department has said they're currently very happy with the F1 endeavor and feel that as a tool it provides their company with an excellent bang for its buck.

So yeah, they obviously want to win (they're German), but as pure businessmen making business decisions, the F1 program is doing its job. Are they any other hypothetical arguments you'd like to do?

My dear cocles, much to your dismay, I do not reside on, nor post on any Audi message board. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the gentlemen at Audi, who have proven over the years, they do know how to properly run a works team in other race series.

I've never said it was the first time in the history of sport something wasn't quite right, saboteurs do exist, or have existed in F1 past. Some in the form of drivers themselves.

I said...

No other team has ever had to specifically watch over one driver's car the way MGP has. Correct me if I am wrong...I can't recall such a thing.

I was merely using it to make the point that every time we get a glimpse of things from MGP --closed door workings-- it seems to clearly indicate a team, in which the compass points east when they mean to go north.

I'm not asking you to "go along" with me regarding the question I asked pertaining to the Daimler board. I'm simply asking you, if they knew that this entire venture would have virtually no success 2 1/2 seasons in, would they have been so quick to buy into Brawn...? I believe the esteemed gentlemen in Stuttgart would have thought a little longer, and a little harder about the entire endeavor. It's an honest question.

I also believe, but correct me if I am wrong, the marketing division is not the one to be making the final call about the worthiness of fielding a works F1 team, correct?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Mercedes have not been a team since the 50s.
Their return was as much about their split with McLaren as it was about a fabled return. How they decide to forge ahead is new uncharted waters, regardless of whom works for the team.

[xpensive]

Mercedes have not been a team since the 50s.
...

I hear that some people have argued they are still not, just owners of a mediocre British team with cars painted silver?

Or something to that effect, but people talk so much.

[SeijaKessen]

Mercedes have not been a team since the 50s.
Their return was as much about their split with McLaren as it was about a fabled return. How they decide to forge ahead is new uncharted waters, regardless of whom works for the team.

JET, I understand Mercedes has not been a F1 team since the 1955 season.

But, I still fail to see how this matters.

Allow me to elucidate further.

In order to prevent the inherent disadvantages that come with not having run an actual F1 team in 55 years, MGP was created by purchasing an existing championship team. A team that won both the WDC, and WCC. No team has ever done that in their first season, even though Brawn just picked up the remains of the Honda team.

1) Honda opts not to run in 2009, and sells team with completed 2009 car to Ross Brawn.

2) Ross Brawn takes this deal because aside from it being the bargain of the century, it gives him a greater advantage due to not having to develop a new car for 2009 from scratch, thus increasing the likelihood of being a backmarker.

3) Ross Brawn wins WDC and WCC.

4) Mercedes buys out championship-winning team with all existing assets.

One would presume, Mercedes bought out the team with the championship season in mind, and decided in doing so, it would give them a greater advantage than most teams.

I really think that's the most reasonable course of thought, don't you JET?

The cautionary tale of Toyota certainly was not ignored by the Daimler board and Dr. Z.

Being an engine supplier for 15 years simply wasn't enough to hedge bets for the Silver Arrow, they jumped in when they could just buy into a successful team, precisely so they could avoid the messiness involved with starting from nothing.

But what we have 2.5 years in, is nothing that indicates that MGP is going anywhere.

[Richard]

One would presume, Mercedes bought out the team with the championship season in mind, and decided in doing so, it would give them a greater advantage than most teams.

I really think that's the most reasonable course of thought, don't you JET?

The most reasonable course of thought is that Merc knew that underlying the freak WCC was a midfield team. Knowing Merc's reputation and their long term approach with McLaren, a rational person with their feet on the ground would use this approach (well I would anyway!)

If Merc thought they were buying instant success then they were fools buying a pig in a poke. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig_in_a_poke

I can imagine Richard Branson being seduced for the razzamatazz of the WCC, but surely a rational teutonic approach would not be swayed by the froth of 2010?

Looking at history, we can see that 4th for two years in a row is the best performance in a decade for this team:

2001 - 6
2002 - 8
2003 - 5
2004 - 2
2005 - 6
2006 - 4
2007 - 8
2008 - 9
2009 – 1
2010 – 4
2011 – 4

[bhall]

Maybe decade means something else in the U.K.