Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I often wonder how an Audi entry would fare in F1.

If there is any manufacturer that could succeed, it would be Audi. Dr. Piech knows how to achieve results better than anyone in racing.

What is the value of this post in this discussion?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Buried with dignity?

So 4th and 4th, winning a race in your third season is shameful is it bhall? Why, Ferrari had a torrid time of things too, before the revolution of 1996... It still took them 5 years to win a championship.
Should they just keel over and die too?

[bhall]

That's comparing apples to apple seeds. Ferrari's march toward a championship featured multiple wins every season.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

That's comparing apples to apple seeds. Ferrari's march toward a championship featured multiple wins every season.

Indeed, and who did they have to beat? McLaren..... Ummmmm who else?
Mercedes have 3 "McLarens" ahead of them... Apples and seeds indeed.

Out of interest how long was that barren spell? No wins for how many years?? You are throwing stones in glass houses my friend.

[bhall]

How? Ferrari's drought is completely immaterial to Mercedes' current struggles. Moreover, I didn't throw that stone.

This is about Mercedes. Though I suspect similar obfuscations are likely one of their internal issues.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

How? Ferrari's drought is completely immaterial to Mercedes' current struggles. Moreover, I didn't throw that stone.

This is about Mercedes. Though I suspect similar obfuscations are likely one of their internal issues.

It is, but there are parrallels to their ambitions of turning into winning teams. And your emblem gives you away somewhat, so I compared it for sake of the rhetoric you where using.
Red Bull for example actually dipped in form in year 3... No victories either.
I'm using measurable yardsticks.

Mercedes are indeed ahead of red bull, at the same stage of comparison. Of course they didn't have to contend with the weight of a three pointed star in cars noses...

[bhall]

Well, I use the rhetoric I use because I'm an asshole, and that's how assholes talk.

That said, I've gotta disagree with the Red Bull parallelism, too. The RB3 was the first Red Bull that had nothing to do with the team's meager Jaguar history. Three years after the RB3, Red Bull finished the season with the strongest car and hasn't really looked back.

Mercedes is three years removed from a World Championship car, and it seems they're only looking back.

[Pierce89]

What he meant is that the Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team is Mercedes in name only. Otherwise, we're still talking about a team in Brackley that's sucked for most of its existence through many different iterations.

A real Mercedes works team would be based in Stuttgart and would probably have considerably different results. (Or would have been killed off already.)

This is the point. Mercedes could have blown hundreds of millions doing just that. With no guarantee of success.
Brawn was on its knees and Mercedes paid 90 million for a factory complete with skeleton crew.
Compare that to purchasing land and constructing an operation from scratch.... 500 million plus!

I would guess brawn would be dead by now. It would not have had its championship cash as this was forwarded the year before, 24 months with no FIA money is a death knell.
Look at caterham, circa 60-80 million setup costs. Where are they?

If someone takes over an operation and rebrands, with a mandate of conducting operations, purchasing expensive new equipment, and sacking staff and employing new staff, it becomes an entirely different proposition to what it was before. It becomes the owners entity.

Mercedes builds cars in china and around the world. Doesn't make it any less a Mercedes. AMG was independent, now it is Mercedes sporting arm. Things change.
Some would have us believe it doesnt, but think for a minute where "brawn" would be today sans Mercedes-Benz.

Apparently you don't understand the point of what I said. All you said here is exacly the reason that "Mercedes hasn't been in F1 for over 50 years" is a very, very stupid excuse for this team's under performing.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well, I use the rhetoric I use because I'm an asshole, and that's how assholes talk.

That said, I've gotta disagree with the Red Bull parallelism, too. The RB3 was the first Red Bull that had nothing to do with the team's meager Jaguar history. Three years after the RB3, Red Bull finished the season with the strongest car and hasn't really looked back.

Mercedes is three years removed from a World Championship car, and it seems they're only looking back.

Er, I wouldn't have gone as far as that bhall.
Any how, as you actually read my posts(pierce... ) I will just summarise.

Year 3 for Mercedes and they win a race, and year 3 for red bull and they are going backwards... And you deduce red bulls ascendancy and Mercedes decline? How so?
As for the W01 and W02... Where these also not borne out of the embers that was Brawn? A 400 man skeleton crew minus Honda resources?
Surely, Mercedes can be excused then using this barometer of yours?

[bhall]

Easy now. I have much better grammar than Pierce.

I think you misunderstood my response to your Red Bull parallel.

The RB1 and RB2 were evolutions of the Jaguar R5, which sucked just like every other Jaguar. The RB3 was the first true Red Bull Racing car. The RB5, the third true Red Bull Racing car, finished as the strongest car of 2009, and I think we're all familiar with the latest chapters of that saga.

The W01 was an evolution of the BGP 001, the title-winning car of 2009. Yet, it sucked. The W02 was an evolution of the W01, and it also sucked, despite its clear lineage to a title-winning car. The W03, still in the BGP 001 family, has thus far managed to win a race - a feat shared by Pastor "I'm Gonna Git You Sucka" Maldonado.

Is that progress?

Beyond that, what does Red Bull Racing's path to success have to do with Mercedes? If anything, Red Bull Racing has illuminated the path, but Mercedes is still lost.

[SeijaKessen]

I often wonder how an Audi entry would fare in F1.

If there is any manufacturer that could succeed, it would be Audi. Dr. Piech knows how to achieve results better than anyone in racing.

What is the value of this post in this discussion?

When I thought about it a bit, I find it interesting how Audi seems to have a better grasp than one of it's German competitors for how to field successful works teams, whereas Mercedes hasn't actually proven they know how to across multiple disciplines.

Mercedes dominance was a long, long, time ago.

Yes they had the two championships with Fangio at the wheel, but since then, they haven't done much as a team in any race discipline they've entered into outside of the brief success in the FIA GT Championship in the 90s.

Their successes have really come as an engine supplier since the mid-80s.

I simply would like to see how the German motorsport juggernaut would fair in comparison to the Silver Arrows in F1. I have a feeling they would do much better simply because the Silver Arrows organizational structure is rather lacking for the reason bhall was so kind to mention.

I suppose at the end of the day, I find the entire MGP situation fascinating because they were given a potential advantage that many works teams have never had, yet, they have made nothing of the situation. Again, I do think things can change, but with the current structure in place, I'm not sure how it will change. Unless of course, they wind up stumbling across the proverbial map of Eldorado by accident.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

@bhall

Throw tons of money and employ Newey?

@seija
Your argument is redundant. Mercedes have handed Audi it's rectum on a platter on the only front they both compete in, and which you also conveniently forget to mention.... DTM.

Good night all.

[gato azul]

Mercedes have handed Audi it's rectum on a platter on the only front they both compete in, and which you also conveniently forget to mention.... DTM

not that it would matter, in the great scheme of things, and not in the context of this thread, but you got me curious.
When exactly would that have been?

last time I checked it was 6 titles Audi vs. 6 titles Mercedes in the "new DTM" (from 2000 until 2011)

or over the complete DTM history
Mercedes: 9 titels
Audi: 8 titels (Audi not participating for 4 years, where Mercedes won 3 of there 9 titels)

sounds pretty even to me

[wunderkind]

Mercedes have handed Audi it's rectum on a platter on the only front they both compete in, and which you also conveniently forget to mention.... DTM

not that it would matter, in the great scheme of things, and not in the context of this thread, but you got me curious.
When exactly would that have been?

last time I checked it was 6 titles Audi vs. 6 titles Mercedes in the "new DTM" (from 2000 until 2011)

or over the complete DTM history
Mercedes: 9 titels
Audi: 8 titels (Audi not participating for 4 years, where Mercedes won 3 of there 9 titels)

sounds pretty even to me

I much prefer Mercedes' approach in winning than Audi's. Audi's DTM championships in the past few years were won with grubby tactics, team orders, and some luck (in 2011). I can't remember if it was 2007-2008, but the Audi team bosses ordered their drivers to block the Mercedes championship contenders on the track, in and out of the pits, to protect the lead Audi driver. In one of the final races of the season, one of the drivers took Ulrich's orders too literally and stayed on the track blocking the Mercedes behind him until he ran out of fuel...................pathetic!

Mercedes' approach was much much more sporting. The drivers were allowed to race cleanly on the track and there were no team orders and it was to the detriment to their title chances.

[munudeges]

Year 3 for Mercedes and they win a race, and year 3 for red bull and they are going backwards... And you deduce red bulls ascendancy and Mercedes decline? How so?

Mercedes started off by buying into a championship winning team with a headstart on the entire field. I believe this has been pointed out to you quite a bit, but for some unknown reason you seem to hit the hard reset button when you feel like it and lose all memory of it.

Red Bull bought the disaster that was Jaguar. There is simply no comparison, is there?