Mercedes - the eternal debating abyss.

[SeijaKessen]

Cocles made a post in the regular MGP team topic, I figured I would respond to it here....

Some of us on this board are the most bi-polar fans I've ever seen. When Merc shows some pace it's, "OMG they're going to take the championships!!!!!11!" Then when they're slow it's, "EVERYONE on this team is a failure! FAILURE!!!!11!1"

The team needs to find pace. They're falling back within the development race, which is strange since last year they were able to maintain the gap with Red Bull using the flawed W02. Doubly strange, last year it was Lotus that couldn't develop and just kept falling back throughout the season.

Hopefully we'll eventually find out what's going on. Is their focus elsewhere? Are they being held back? Or have these tires simply stumped them?

Poaching Elliot brings a grin to my face, and the team has already met my expectations for this season. (I wanted to see progress from last season.) That said, for the rest of the year, I'm hoping the W03 will shake the remaining bugs out of the team, and we'll see some pace again soon.

We already know the problem with MGP.

The team is a failure Cocles, especially when you consider what was expected out of them.

Their focus is now simply on trying to draw out this shell game Ross and Norby pulled on Dr. Z and the Daimler board before the repercussions are felt from Stuttgart to Brackley.

The good news is with the month of August not containing any races, the three kings and the messiah may finally reach a consensus on whose job is what, and be able to deliver an upgrade package of value in time for Belgium. Where they promptly will find themselves still behind everyone else at the top.

[xpensive]

...
The good news is with the month of August not containing any races, the three kings and the messiah may finally reach a consensus on whose job is what, ...

Perhaps the only thing lacking for this team now is the Holy spirit, to complete the Trinity so to speak, any ideas?

[bhall]

Some of us on this board are the most bi-polar fans I've ever seen.

[...]

As someone who's legitimately bipolar - it's pretty obvious, huh? - I resent this assertion. These people are just crazy.

Crazier still, however, is the idea that Mercedes AMG Petronas is anything other than a very costly flop. But, that's OK. F1 needs teams like this to demonstrate that budget in no way correlates with success; instead, success is determined by engineering excellence and ingenuity.

For years, Toyota carried the money-means-nothing torch with remarkable aplomb, and I, for one, am delighted to see that flame of failure passed on to a new generation of abject underachievers. It means the cost-cutting heralds need look no further than the team of Ross "I've Been Part of Nine World Championships" Brawn and Michael "Even Cheating Wouldn't Help Here" Schumacher to find undeniable evidence that such is a silly notion.

So proud am I of the Brackley-based outfit that I think it would be entirely appropriate for one of its representatives to bring the games of the XXX Olympiad in London to a close by extinguishing that ubiquitous symbol of eternal spirit and knowledge, the Olympic flame.

[SeijaKessen]

...
The good news is with the month of August not containing any races, the three kings and the messiah may finally reach a consensus on whose job is what, ...

Perhaps the only thing lacking for this team now is the Holy spirit, to complete the Trinity so to speak, any ideas?

Flavio Briatore is the missing piece!

One has to consider what we are currently seeing with MGP is actually quite fitting xpensive.

This is quite the karmic payback for the fraudulent BS they pulled prior to the Italian GP in September 1991.

Herr Schumacher's Mercedes backers had that deal with Jordan for Schumacher to drive, then pulled a fast one and got him the contract with Benetton.

Isn't it fitting now 20 years later, when the Silver Arrow decides to field a works team, they are promptly conned into buying a team that is going to cost them ungodly amounts of Euros?

"One of the most shameful events in Formula One history has taken place in Monza before Sunday's Italian GP. The outcome of a great deal of behind the scenes activity is that Michael Schumacher will spend the forseeable future with the Benetton F1 team. He was expected to have driven for the 7Up Jordan team but instead replaces Roberto Moreno, fired by Benetton. Moreno went to court in Monza on Thursday to defend his position in the Benetton team and his case was upheld. As a result he has received financial compensation and becomes a free driver.

The activities surrounding Michael Schumacher have caused a great deal of anxiety among Formula One drivers. Schumacher's F1 future has been decided it seems by Mercedes-Benz motor sport manager Jochen Neerpasch, Benetton and the International Management Group. Rumour has it that Nelson Piquet has spoken out to the Italian Press over the sacking of his teammate Roberto Moreno. This could land the former world champion in serious trouble with the Benetton team." -John Watson

[SeijaKessen]

Some of us on this board are the most bi-polar fans I've ever seen.

[...]

As someone who's legitimately bipolar - it's pretty obvious, huh? - I resent this assertion. These people are just crazy.

Crazier still, however, is the idea that Mercedes AMG Petronas is anything other than a very costly flop. But, that's OK. F1 needs teams like this to demonstrate that budget in no way correlates with success; instead, success is determined by engineering excellence and ingenuity.

For years, Toyota carried the money-means-nothing torch with remarkable aplomb, and I, for one, am delighted to see that flame of failure passed on to a new generation of abject underachievers. It means the cost-cutting heralds need look no further than the team of Ross "I've Been Part of Nine World Championships" Brawn and Michael "Even Cheating Wouldn't Help Here" Schumacher to find undeniable evidence that such is a silly notion.

So proud am I of the Brackley-based outfit that I think it would be entirely appropriate for one of its representatives to bring the games of the XXX Olympiad in London to a close by extinguishing that ubiquitous symbol of eternal spirit and knowledge, the Olympic flame.

This is quite a fantastic --not the bipolar aspect-- post all around. My condolences on that.

We have seen over the last decade, the idea that a team spend ungodly globs of money, somehow will automatically translate into success in F1. At the same time, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to date that large automotive manufacturers, who have thrown tons of money at their works teams have failed, people still seem to subscribe to this false idea. Cost-cutting measures are absurd since there is no correlation to lots of money spent returning in the form of races victories.

As far as works teams go, large scale automotive manufacturers have in my opinion, no place in F1, other than as an engine supplier. F1 is best left to the independent teams, as well as the Scuderia.

They can roast Norby the Hutt over the Olympic flame to appease the Daimler board for a bit longer, so they can get another crack for 2013 with the W04.

[marcush.]

I´m pretty impressed that Mercede Daimler was naive enough to believe in all the crap Brawn told them and even when Button on his way to bagging his title decided not to have enough faith in that team to renew his contract early but passing on the baton to others politely...
I think it simply was Norbys dream of dreams was identified Fry and Brawn as a goldmine of considerable depth ...

[xpensive]

...
I think it simply was Norbys dream of dreams was identified Fry and Brawn as a goldmine of considerable depth ...

Now don't you forget SmallFry's multi-billion shampoo-deal, perhaps he was/is the Holy Spirit in the context?

Come to think of it, "Schwartzkopf" sounds spiritual enough, doesn't it?

[SeijaKessen]

...
I think it simply was Norbys dream of dreams was identified Fry and Brawn as a goldmine of considerable depth ...

Now don't you forget SmallFry's multi-billion shampoo-deal, perhaps he was/is the Holy Spirit in the context?

Come to think of it, "Schwartzkopf" sounds spiritual enough, doesn't it?

Here's another thought...

January 2013

On a windy, bitter January day, Mercedes holds a press conference to state that the Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team will not be competing in the 2013 season. They express their thanks to the sponsors that stuck by them over the past three years and apologize for their lack of success. The team will be sold as soon as a buyer is located, and Mercedes only cares about getting the entire venture off of their books. The camera zooms in on a smug Ross Brawn sitting at the table and a dejected Norbert Haug next to him. Ross leans over to Norbert and whispers something into his ear. Norbert perks up like a dog hearing food being poured into his bowl. Most journalists think nothing of it.

Several weeks later, a story begins to appear over the wire that Mercedes has found an owner to purchase their F1 team.

It's announced on February 8, 2013 that the Holy Spi--rather, Flavior Briatore has put together a group of investors to purchase the Mercedes AMG F1 team.

Several days later on February 14, 2013, a press conference is held. Sitting at the table are Flavio Briatore, Ross Brawn, the three kings, the messiah, Michael Schumacher, and a beeming Norby the Hutt.

They announce they will comprise the reformed Benetton F1 team.

Dr. Z watches from a castle in Germany with a feeling of dread in his stomach.

Several days later, it's rumored the team was bought by Flavio Briatore for pennies on the dollar.

Dr. Z knowing it's true feels more dread.

A month later, the Benetton B013 driven by Michael Schumacher takes a victory in Australia by more than 20 seconds over defending World Champion Fernando Alonso in the Ferrari.

It's reported in a low key story that Dr. Z has suffered a severe hand injury when it was claimed he fell in his home, and when attempting to break his fall, his hand went through the screen of his 80 inch plasma TV.

[xpensive]

I'm sorry fellow members, but as I have had my rights to vote threatened due to certain events taken place on this very thread, I'm afraid I will have to bow out from this otherwise and in every respect most spiritual debate.

Thanks guys.

[Raptor22]

...
The good news is with the month of August not containing any races, the three kings and the messiah may finally reach a consensus on whose job is what, ...

Perhaps the only thing lacking for this team now is the Holy spirit, to complete the Trinity so to speak, any ideas?

Flavio Briatore is the missing piece!

One has to consider what we are currently seeing with MGP is actually quite fitting xpensive.

This is quite the karmic payback for the fraudulent BS they pulled prior to the Italian GP in September 1991.

Herr Schumacher's Mercedes backers had that deal with Jordan for Schumacher to drive, then pulled a fast one and got him the contract with Benetton.

Isn't it fitting now 20 years later, when the Silver Arrow decides to field a works team, they are promptly conned into buying a team that is going to cost them ungodly amounts of Euros?

"One of the most shameful events in Formula One history has taken place in Monza before Sunday's Italian GP. The outcome of a great deal of behind the scenes activity is that Michael Schumacher will spend the forseeable future with the Benetton F1 team. He was expected to have driven for the 7Up Jordan team but instead replaces Roberto Moreno, fired by Benetton. Moreno went to court in Monza on Thursday to defend his position in the Benetton team and his case was upheld. As a result he has received financial compensation and becomes a free driver.

The activities surrounding Michael Schumacher have caused a great deal of anxiety among Formula One drivers. Schumacher's F1 future has been decided it seems by Mercedes-Benz motor sport manager Jochen Neerpasch, Benetton and the International Management Group. Rumour has it that Nelson Piquet has spoken out to the Italian Press over the sacking of his teammate Roberto Moreno. This could land the former world champion in serious trouble with the Benetton team." -John Watson

I am always amused by the persistence of reports around those events. Its like 1966...

An ulsterman writing a biased article on the wrongs inflicted on a fellow ulsterman. This song and dance was packaged and sold around the world as Riverdance wasn't it?No, oh sorry my mistake.
Driver swops have been the norm in F1 before those events and after. Well after I think it the contract was slightly more respected.
I mean no one complained in 1993 when Senna hauled Ron over the beer barrel for more than $1million a race...
Or when Frank Williams unceremoniously dropped Mansell for the 1993 season because they could not agree on salary. Frak being tightfisted wasn't prepared to meet Mansell's demands when Prost came on board for a season with Renault covering some of the cash..

I think many people dream of what might have been had Schmacher stayd at Jordan for the remainder of the season. The sotry of MSC's speed in the Jordan is well documented. MSC was a contracted Mercedes driver back then and Neerpasch was wll within his rights to sell his services to the highest bidder. Al Jordan reportedly had was a gentlemen's agreement and in F1 those have een broken many many times!

[SeijaKessen]

Some information...

Not sure why you would find Senna's salary of $1 million per race in 1993 to be anything extraordinary.

Keep in mind, in his first season with Lotus back in 1985, Senna's salary for the season was $5 million.

His final season with Lotus in 1987 was $7 million.

6 years later, 3 World Championships later, 30 race victories later...why would a salary of $16 million be all that outrageous? He did give 5 race wins to McLaren that year.

He was making more than $7 million when he signed with McLaren in '88.

Mansell was never worth the money, he cost Williams a few championships in the 80s. Any decent driver would have done what Mansell did in 1992. It was the car, not Mansell that won. As discussed elsewhere, the FW14B was worldbeater.

Oh yes, but gentlemen's agreements should be honored. No surprise that such a thing involving an un-gentlemanly racer occurred.

[SeijaKessen]

I'm sorry fellow members, but as I have had my rights to vote threatened due to certain events taken place on this very thread, I'm afraid I will have to bow out from this otherwise and in every respect most spiritual debate.

Thanks guys.

This is rather a shame.

I've been looking over in one of the technical forums, and I notice posters getting upvoted even though they didn't make any real point other than a few one-liners here and there.

To quote Ron Dennis in Adelaide 1989, "Where's the consistency?"

[Cocles]

MB makes the best engines?

Putting Mercedes covers on an Ilmor built engine does not make it a MB engine...much like painting a British F1 car silver does not make it a Mercedes car.

Nor does winning 2 constructors championships since 1995 qualify them as the best engine Manufacturer.

Over the same period of time, Renault-powered F1 cars have won 7.

Ferrari engines have won 8.

I think our opinions on what constitutes best engines differs just slightly.

The consolation is that Ilmor/MB engines are indeed better than Cosworth engines over the same time period.

Well...

a)Ilmor could never enter F1 alone for any length of time.
b) required Stuttgart resources(engineers along with money)
c)Effectively became a Mercedes run operation from 1995 onwards with Mercedes calling the shots.
d) wholly owned Mercedes ops in 2005-

So this begs the question, Seija, what threshold does a team have to cross before they match their livery, hm? Is Red Bull still Stewart then? What does Ilmor have to do for you to consider it an actual Mercedes engine factory? Or is the answer simply, "Nothing, it'll always be Ilmor, because that gives me the same thing to fall back on whenever I run out of things to complain about Mercedes-Benz." Seija, wouldn't it be healthier to just talk about things you actually like?

I wish the mods would wise up that you guys are using Merc-AMG to proxy-troll JET and the other fans. It's a pretty cool system; I have to give you credit. You go over-the-top, slamming the team with lots of smirking to get JET and the other fans riled up. Then when JET and the other fans take your bait, the mods delete their posts (for causing drama) while leaving your trolling intact. I'm sure on your end, it's hilarious.

[marcush.]

well in terms of illmor -it was the roger Penske connection that made it all possible and as Chevrolet lost interest it was daimler buying into the operation.

With Mr.Fuhr (?) at the helm these days ,it´s fair to say Mercedes.AMG High performance powertrains is developping towards a DAI company and still produces respectable results

http://www.mercedes-amg-hpp.com/v/about_us/who_we_are/


Interestingly it is still a british company for whatever reason.
(maybe Morgan family still owning shares?)

For Mercedes GP it is far more muddy ... when is a company part of a the whole ,maybe when you can find the people working there can be found in their company phonebook and Intranet?

[xpensive]

...
Seija, are you just a second account that X uses? I'm not asking rhetorically.

Perhaps she is...ooops! While I take it you are JET's ambassador when he's in xile, right Coc?

But really, "Mercedes" contribution to Ilmor was never anything but money, and shitloads of it, allowing them to xpand into crazy developments like those beryllium-pistons and perverse three-lap quali-xhausts at 100k a pop, leading to an arms-race that not even Montezuma could match. Daimler single-handedly brought us these spec-engines with different valve-covers.