Ferrari F2012

[Rockatansky]

Well yeah, but the wind tunnel issues were more prevalent in 2011, the Spa downgrade package for example.

[bhall]

[...]

PS To be fair, their first exhaust (the one that melted the tires) was good in principle, but hat said drawback.

Granted, reflection offers an accuracy not possible by any forecast, I think it's probably safe to say at this point the F2012's initial problems were 95% tire-related, if not more so. The tires have been such an apparent wild card this year that it seems there was no way during the pre-season tests to know what would work and what wouldn't work, because there was no way to know what those terms even meant. Solid knowledge of the tires demanded the context provided by all teams operating with the same goal under race conditions. It was a crap shoot until then, and the early results clearly bear that out.

Did the first exhaust solution "melt" the tires, or was the car just set up in such a way as to cause massive degradation? Who knows? It wouldn't surprise me if even the team doesn't know for sure, because I wouldn't be surprised if the team's "correlation problems" never existed, that it was all just a long series of question marks written in Pirelli ink.

[aqeelhamzah]

I am curious to see what developments Ferrari will bring to Hungary, the fact that they are inducing vortex's really shows they are developing the rear end of the car.

[superdread]

Did the first exhaust solution "melt" the tires, or was the car just set up in such a way as to cause massive degradation? Who knows? It wouldn't surprise me if even the team doesn't know for sure, because I wouldn't be surprised if the team's "correlation problems" never existed, that it was all just a long series of question marks written in Pirelli ink.

Well, they reverted to a 'save'-solution by pointing the exhaust more inward. That, as I remember, resolved these issues, but it also could have changed the downforce under engine load enough to affect the tire degredation.

Well yeah, but the wind tunnel issues were more prevalent in 2011, the Spa downgrade package for example.

Hmmm, this certainly protruded into this season. They had aerodynamic problems (as well as tires) and bringing part after part does hint that they can't predict how exactly a part will work.

[Rockatansky]

[...]

PS To be fair, their first exhaust (the one that melted the tires) was good in principle, but hat said drawback.

Granted, reflection offers an accuracy not possible by any forecast, I think it's probably safe to say at this point the F2012's initial problems were 95% tire-related, if not more so. The tires have been such an apparent wild card this year that it seems there was no way during the pre-season tests to know what would work and what wouldn't work, because there was no way to know what those terms even meant. Solid knowledge of the tires demanded the context provided by all teams operating with the same goal under race conditions. It was a crap shoot until then, and the early results clearly bear that out.

Did the first exhaust solution "melt" the tires, or was the car just set up in such a way as to cause massive degradation? Who knows? It wouldn't surprise me if even the team doesn't know for sure, because I wouldn't be surprised if the team's "correlation problems" never existed, that it was all just a long series of question marks written in Pirelli ink.

And I thought that the Ferrari had been one of the best teams to adapt to the tyres!

How about 95% downforce/traction, 5% tyres?

[bhall]

I don't think you read that correctly. In the context of the discussion, I'm saying that the vast majority of Ferrari's improvement is because of the way in which they've adapted to the tires.

EDIT:

Well, they reverted to a 'save'-solution by pointing the exhaust more inward. That, as I remember, resolved these issues, but it also could have changed the downforce under engine load enough to affect the tire degredation.

If you recall, the "breakthrough" moment happened in Monaco when Massa/Smedley discovered that the car reacted well to increased rake and softer settings - a solution, incidentally, suggest by some in this thread since Jerez. The F2012's exhaust solution for that event was, by all accounts, aero-neutral.

[Rockatansky]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me, I'm saying that the tyres were never a problem. By solving the car's downforce and traction issues they took care of the tyres at the same time.

[Rockatansky]

I don't think you read that correctly. In the context of the discussion, I'm saying that the vast majority of Ferrari's improvement is because of the way in which they've adapted to the tires.

EDIT:

Well, they reverted to a 'save'-solution by pointing the exhaust more inward. That, as I remember, resolved these issues, but it also could have changed the downforce under engine load enough to affect the tire degredation.

If you recall, the "breakthrough" moment happened in Monaco when Massa/Smedley discovered that the car reacted well to increased rake and softer settings - a solution, incidentally, suggest by some in this thread since Jerez. The F2012's exhaust solution for that event was, by all accounts, aero-neutral.

Monaco was Massa specific, surely Alonso on pole at Barcelona of all places was the breakthrough moment?

*Edit. Sorry Maldonado was on Pole after Hamilton's penalty, Alonso was promoted to start second. But still, the car's performance changed significantly after the Mugello test.

[superdread]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me, I'm saying that the tyres were never a problem. By solving the car's downforce and traction issues they took care of the tyres at the same time.

Ups, confused the quotes.
In a broad sense yes, they still had to find better setups for a constant temperature, but that is 'easy' once aero works.

If you recall, the "breakthrough" moment happened in Monaco when Massa/Smedley discovered that the car reacted well to increased rake and softer settings - a solution, incidentally, suggest by some in this thread since Jerez. The F2012's exhaust solution for that event was, by all accounts, aero-neutral.

The suspension was good all along, and on aero terms Monaco just needs massive downforce.

[amouzouris]

I don't think you read that correctly. In the context of the discussion, I'm saying that the vast majority of Ferrari's improvement is because of the way in which they've adapted to the tires.

EDIT:

Well, they reverted to a 'save'-solution by pointing the exhaust more inward. That, as I remember, resolved these issues, but it also could have changed the downforce under engine load enough to affect the tire degredation.

If you recall, the "breakthrough" moment happened in Monaco when Massa/Smedley discovered that the car reacted well to increased rake and softer settings - a solution, incidentally, suggest by some in this thread since Jerez. The F2012's exhaust solution for that event was, by all accounts, aero-neutral.

Monaco was Massa specific, surely Alonso on pole at Barcelona of all places was the breakthrough moment?

at Barcelona? when did that happen?? u meant silverstone?

[superdread]

Monaco was Massa specific, surely Alonso on pole at Barcelona of all places was the breakthrough moment?

In season testing at Mugello was Ferraris ace and they played it well.

To search for a definitive breakthrough is pointless as it depends on how you judge the others advanced and just how good you think Alonso can drive. Malaysia was not very technical but it was very funny.

[Rockatansky]

Yep, sorry original post edited. It was the post Mugello gain that I was getting at.

[bhall]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me, I'm saying that the tyres were never a problem. By solving the car's downforce and traction issues they took care of the tyres at the same time.

Of course, it is a chicken/egg scenario. I'm just more inclined to believe the car never really lacked downforce, and that traction was only an issue in slow-speed corners. It won in Malaysia in wet conditions, an outcome that would not have been possible with such deficiencies.

If you look Alonso's surge, you'll see that it started in earnest in Canada. That leads me to believe that Massa's setup breakthrough in Monaco was in no way limited to just his performance.

[superdread]

Perhaps you've misunderstood me, I'm saying that the tyres were never a problem. By solving the car's downforce and traction issues they took care of the tyres at the same time.

Of course, it is a chicken/egg scenario. I'm just more inclined to believe the car never really lacked downforce, and that traction was only an issue in slow-speed corners. It won in Malaysia in wet conditions, an outcome that would not have been possible with such deficiencies.

One theory on that is that Ferrari used a lot of downforce to aid their tire and aero issues, so as the race went into the sea they had a definitive advantage.

[Rockatansky]

Yet everytime we've seen them out in the wet, they are right up there.
Surely this points more to Ferrari being able to switch the wets and inters on, whereas McLaren, for example, have admitted they struggle to do so.